New medal bar with BMVO 4th class and its ribbon bar

[Claudio]

Dear forumites,

I'd like to introduce my latest purchase. Actually I have still to wait for the bars to arrive, but I can't wait to post the pictures of the seller.

Although from the medal bar it's quite clear that it can't be researched, the ribbon bar gives already more clues about the probable original wearer of these two bars.

Here the description of the medal bar:

? Preussen, Eisernes Kreuz 2. Klasse, 1914 (OEK 1904)

? Bayern, Milit?r-Verdienstorden, 1866-1921, Kreuz 4. Klasse mit Schwertern (OEK 410), Medallion Gold, very likely a Jakob Leser Piece...

? Deutsches Reich 1933-45, Ehrenkreuz f?r Frontk?mpfer (OEK 3803/1)

? Deutsches Reich 1933-45, WH-DA 2. Stufe, 18 Jahre (OEK 3853)

? Deutsches Reich 1933-45, WH-DA 4. Stufe, 4 Jahre (OEK 3855)

? ?sterreich 1. Republik, 1. WK-Erinnerungsmedaille

? Ungarn, 1. WK-Erinnerungsmedaille

Like Rick L. always says... please look always at the back... As you can see it's black and has the taylor/dealer's tag (J. Reimann, Berlin), which I have also encountered on previous bars, but a bit less common than the famous exclusive Orden & Ehrenzeichen Dealer and Juweller Godet.

The ribbon bar has on it:

- EK 2. Kl. 1914

- BMVO 4. mit X

- Ehrenkreuz f?r Frontk?mpfer

- 1. Republik ?sterreich, 1. WK-Erinnerungsmedaille

- Baltenkreuz (very interesting)

- DA 1. Stufe f. 25 Jahre

- DA 3. Stufe f. 12 Jahre

- Medaille zur Erinnerung an den Anschluss Oesterreichs

- Ungarn, 1. WK-Erinnerungsmedaille

- Bulgarien, 1. WK-Erinnerungsmedaille

- Italien, Kronen Orden (Ordine della corona italiana)

- Sweden, Order of the swords

Because of the Black backing, the Baltenkreuz and the Swedish Order of the swords I am inclined to think that the wearer could have been an senior officer in the Kriegsmarine. Strange the Bavarian MVO, but who knows, maybe going through the books about the Admir?le during WWII it could be possible to come up with the name... that would be very cool!

Thank you already in advance for your most appreciated inputs.

Ciao,

Claudio

[Claudio]

Here a detailed photo of the BMVO 4. Kl.. Due to the delicate tranparent blue email and the Golden Letter "L" with the outlined crown in the center of the medallion I suggest it might be a Jakob Leser... what do you think?

Ciao,

Claudio

[Claudio]

I forgot also to mention that the Hindenburg cross is marked G S (Godet & Sohn) and the bar was put together by a dealer in Berlin where all the High ranking officers were stationed as being the capital and center of all Headquarters. Therefore I think that this officer could have been at least a Major (Fregattenk?pitan) if not even a General or Admiral...

The medal bar was put together logically before the ribbon, notice the absence of the Anschluss-Medaille for instance. So I believe that the bar has been purchased around 35 and the ribbon bar after the Anschluss 38-39 maybe even later and the DA have been consequently being update from 18 to 25 years... The seller informed me that both ribbon and medal bar came from the same family (Erben)... I don't know how much we should trust such statements, but for me it's an additional proof that the medal and ribbon bars could have been of the same original "Tr?ger"...

Ciao,

Claudio

Edited June 19, 2007 by Claudio

[Noor]

VERY NICE!!!

[webr55]

A really great bar! A 1914 volunteer who just had 25 years service time in 1939. He wore his Baltic Cross as a pinback, but put it onto his ribbon bar. The Italian award with device is certainly 1930s.

[Claudio]

@ webr55: I totally agree with also on the Baltenkreuz. As a side note; there was no first and second class (pinback or medal with ribbon) for the Baltenkreuz like the Iron Cross. It was just a semi-official award of the Weimar Republic time. I have seen some soldiers to wear the Baltenkreuz as a pinback on the pocket and also on the ribbon or medal bar. That was wrong.

Ciao,

Claudio

[HeikoGrusdat]

Claudio, if my brain is not completely in the german midsummer smog fog........................... the hungary ww1 medal was given out in 1938, or ?????

If this one appears on the big bar the Anschlussmedaille should as well.........

but please correct me if I am wrong

[webr55]

Claudio, if my brain is not completely in the german midsummer smog fog........................... the hungary ww1 medal was given out in 1938, or ?????

If this one appears on the big bar the Anschlussmedaille should as well.........

but please correct me if I am wrong

I think it was much earlier, more like 1928.

[Guest Rick Research]

I agree that this has all the signs of a naval bar. Circa October 1, 1936 (Wehrmacht Long services) to 1938-- the 1935-ish Austrian WW1 Commemorative Medal (with Swords on its ribbon) and the 1928+ Hungarian medal both being last as foreign indicates it is a pre-Anschluss MEDAL bar.

Remember that a lot of the Anschluss Medals were delayed by slow processing getting handed out and it could have been January 1940 or so before he got it-- and never bothered re-mounting his medal bar for the duration, once the war had started.

Normally when a Wehrmacht 18 group shows up, it's some old (E) officer with 14-15 calendar years of Imperial time and then the 4 or so before long service awards were suspended in 1939.

But as a PAIR this is a very unusual WW1 duo. Any Bavarian-born "native" who had been commissioned in 1911/12 would have received that issue of the Luitpold Jubilee Medal-- not present here.

I only find TWO (E) retreads without having eligibility for the 25 and 12-- from Crew 1909 Max Hamm, and from Crew 1910 Richard Plum-- both Uboat officers. Both without the 18 years combined time. Both without any kind of service to account for the foreign glitter and a Berlin tag. BUT....

Friedrich Begemann, born 4 June 1895 of Crew 1915--

only commissioned as Leutnant zur See 17.6.17 and who we would EXPECT to have a late war silver gilt BMV4X IS a likely suspect--

he remained in the Reichsmarine

Oberleutnant zS 1.1.21 #9

Kapit?nleutnant zS 1.1.28.

He mysteriously RESIGNED some time betwwen 1928 (in) and 1931 (out), when he was a theological student!!!

But God did not stick, and he was back in the navy by 1935 again (having served 13-15 years and then with 4 more to add on by 1939-- he fits)

Korvettenkapit?n zS (E) 1.4.35 #1

Fregattenkapit?n zS circa 1940

Kapit?n zur See 1.9.42 #8

And what was HE up to in the late 1930s?

He was at the Oberkommando der Marine, in the Naval Signals/(?) Intelligence Section (Abteilung "A III") in... Berlin.

Where he remained listed in the Berlin city directory issues of 1939, 1940, 1941, 1942, and 1943 (last one printed during the war apparently) at Am Pfuhl 8 in Berlin-Lichterfeld.

He retired as Kapt zS and lived in Hamburg after the war. Died 13 January 1983 at age 87.

I'd say Begemann is your prime suspect. He was member number 48 of the M.O.V., so there was probably a big obituary for him in the M.O.H. e.V. when he died.

[Daniel Krause]

Hi Claudio,

great new find!!!!

BTW, the Italian Crown Order ribbon with the golden crown device on the bar indicates a Commander grade, awarded to Officers in LtCol- level.

Best regards

Daniel

[Stogieman]

Ribbon after the Italian Order of The Crown, in last place???

[Claudio]

As I mentioned in my post earlier, it's a Swedish Royal order of the swords, very likely a knight cross.

Ciao,

Claudio

Edited June 20, 2007 by Claudio

[Claudio]

... and here the commander cross of the order of the Italian crown.

Ciao,

Claudio

[webr55]

I'm not so sure anymore that these two bars belong together.

1) Why would he have updated his ribbon bar with the new DAs, but not the medal bar? Usually, we see older versions of RIBBON bars, but less so of MEDAL bars. Especially if there would have been good reason for an update, with FIVE new awards (2 DAs, Bulgarian medal, 1938 Anschluss medal, Swedish order).

2) How would he have got a Swedish sword order KNIGHT after 1938, but also an Italian crown order COMMANDER? If I saw only the ribbon bar, I would think that the Swedish order in that case was a pre-1914 award - or maybe 1920s, but not post-1938.

I would really like to see the backing of the ribbon bar.

[Guest Rick Research]

Ribbon bars were worn far more often than full medals.

My Konteradmiral (V) B?ning never changed his medal bar after October 1936-- he never mounted his KVK2X on it. I suppose the expense of "constantly" remounting a medal bar that might never get worn was why they were just tucked away with the cufflinks and other unworn attire.

I'm surprised there aren't swords on the Swedish Order... that seems to have been the most common German mistake.

It is perhaps also a Commander and he wasn't sure how to show that, since a gold crown would also have been a Knight 1st.

I can't account for the ribbon bar in any case since these peacetime foreign awards were never shown after the Rank Lists of 1914. I'm going by the medal bar.

[Deruelle]

Hi,

Very nice group Claudio, like always.

For your Sweden ribbon it may be a knight cross 2nd class. I have one ribbon bar with X and crown. This is the close up of the ribbon.

Regards

Christophe

[Naxos]

Beautiful group Claudio

Regards, Hardy

[Tiger-pie]

I'm not so sure anymore that these two bars belong together.

1) Why would he have updated his ribbon bar with the new DAs, but not the medal bar? Usually, we see older versions of RIBBON bars, but less so of MEDAL bars. Especially if there would have been good reason for an update, with FIVE new awards (2 DAs, Bulgarian medal, 1938 Anschluss medal, Swedish order).

2) How would he have got a Swedish sword order KNIGHT after 1938, but also an Italian crown order COMMANDER? If I saw only the ribbon bar, I would think that the Swedish order in that case was a pre-1914 award - or maybe 1920s, but not post-1938.

I would really like to see the backing of the ribbon bar.

What if he was a Naval Attach?, would this then be possible?

Regards;

Johnsy

[Claudio]

@ webr55: the color of the back of the ribbon bar is a neutral grey. I will post some better pictures when I will have received the bars.

I don't see any problems that the wearer didn't choose to wear some of his Foreign decorations. That happened quite often. Maybe he chosed to wear only the war time and the WWI allied states of the German Reich decorations. That makes sense to me. If he got the commander cross of the Order of the Italian crown (see crown device, which normally should have rather been a rosette), he had to wear it around the neck. Maybe he got his Swedish order during his time fighting in the Baltic see with the Freikorps (see Baltenkreuz) or maybe even later as he was at the HQ in Berlin. Usually high ranking officers in such positions (Headquarters, Liason-officers, etc.) got easily such Foreign orders during visits of a prominent Foreign ruler, politician or military personality without any real purpose or merit.

These are of course speculation; without any documents it's difficult to tell for sure. I will be able to tell more when I will have both bars in my "pawns".

Ciao,

Claudio

Edited June 21, 2007 by Claudio

[Guest Rick Research]

Gray as in... Godet? With their = catch?

[Claudio]

Rick,

I think you're right... it might be a Godet: I am not 100% sure because of the bad quality picture I have got, but it looks very much like a Godet (color of the fabric on the back and needle system).

Ciao,

Claudio

[Stogieman]

Sorry Claudio, not sure how I missed that line! My Bad!

[saschaw]

Gray as in... Godet? With their = catch?

Have all Godet bars this = catch? I've got a very nice little bar with the typical grey and typical sewing, but with another catch ...

Edit:

Here pictures of mine ...

Edited June 26, 2007 by saschaw

[Guest Rick Research]

Almost all the time. It's an odd style that they used from during 1916-18 (?) into the 1930s and nobody else did until 1957+. The color of the cloth backing is less important than the metal parts. The catches for the pin will vary over time, but the "=" hinge seems to have stayed the same. The really old ones had little metal "automobile license plate" tags, too:

[Claudio]

The medal bar just arrived in the mail... It just a great bar! I would like to share the pictures...