Sal Williams Posted July 7, 2007 Share Posted July 7, 2007 What do you guys think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sal Williams Posted July 7, 2007 Author Share Posted July 7, 2007 front Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve campbell Posted July 7, 2007 Share Posted July 7, 2007 These engraved ones are a real minefield aren't they? If it's legit you have a unique piece, albeit one that's going to cost. If not you have a expensive KO, that's not even worth the price of an untouched KO. To me this would be a good area for scammers to get into as you have a good way to triple or better your money on a common piece that often you would have a hard time selling. As for authenticity, I'll leave that to someone else. Where are any of us gaining the knowledge to judge these engravings? I guess you would want to see natural and even aging and patina and know something about engravings from that era. Hopefully you'll get an answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted July 7, 2007 Share Posted July 7, 2007 Yup, once patina's been twiddled with, no way to guess when something was done-- one reason I'm no great fan of engraved items.Now a Rittmeister der Landwehr-Kavallerie II doesn't seem like anybody's top list for faking, which is a good sign. I can't find any Oscar Gossler offhand, but suppose from his rank and age he probably was a RETIRED pre-war Landwehr officer called back at this rank, in his 50s.The style lookss good for the period. maybe Glenn can sort out whether there is a good suspect for Gossler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn J Posted July 7, 2007 Share Posted July 7, 2007 (edited) Rick, Steve,my best guess is the Leutnant der Landwehr Kavallerie II in Landwehrbezirk I Hamburg in 1914. He was already the senior Lt. d.L. Kav. II then (22.7.00 G2g) originally having been commissioned into Ulanen-Regiment Nr. 7. He was promoted to Oberleutnant d.L. Kav. II on 5.10.14 and could have made Rittmeister by October 1917. In 1913 he was a businessmann living at Hamburg Heilwigstra?e 30. Unfortunately the Milit?r-Wochenblatt edition gazetting his promotion to Oberleutnant does not give his assignment in October 1914.RegardsGlenn Edited July 7, 2007 by Glenn J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve campbell Posted July 7, 2007 Share Posted July 7, 2007 The research checks out, but a good scammer might do the same to lend legitimacy to the piece. I'm playing devil's advocate here, but that has to be taken into account. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sal Williams Posted July 7, 2007 Author Share Posted July 7, 2007 Although I have learned NOT to expect less information, I still am always boggled when I get so much down to address and proffession! Although it is claimed this is done with "books" I have to wonder which witch books we are talking about! Thanks guys!! I thought the engraving looked very period but that is just an uneducated hunch going by what other engravings have been "deemed" good in the past in various places. I am tempted to buy it.Best, Sal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sal Williams Posted July 7, 2007 Author Share Posted July 7, 2007 This was also part of the deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gregM Posted July 7, 2007 Share Posted July 7, 2007 I like it. It has the right look about it and i like the slight discoloration in the lettering.BUT I also notice the difference in patina between the engraving and the KO makersmark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sal Williams Posted July 7, 2007 Author Share Posted July 7, 2007 I like it. It has the right look about it and i like the slight discoloration in the lettering.BUT I also notice the difference in patina between the engraving and the KO makersmark. I bet one would have to see that in person as the mm looks deeper so that could be shadow. Dunno. I do keep thinking about it though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Research Posted July 7, 2007 Share Posted July 7, 2007 Thanks Glenn! "The research checks out, but a good scammer might do the same to lend legitimacy to the piece. I'm playing devil's advocate here, but that has to be taken into account."Too too true, Steve. However, to get one past Glenn would require a truly insane amount of time which ONLY Glenn has put into this. We're talking mind numbing, finger paralyzing, midnight oil burning amounts of time and effort to get into period references so obscure and inaccessible thatonly lunatics like us (and I can count them on two hands and name all of us) could or would get that far into being ABLE to do so even were we of the Research Wizards Guild not pure as the wind-driven snow and poor as churchmice to boot...and to what gain?I wouldn't pay any great premium on any engraved piece that did not come out of a group.Oscar there isn't a celeberity. I'd rather have his award document than his lone Iron Cross. Usually what we see are "To my dear brother Lothar from Manfred vR" kind of phony dedications, or really strange ones, or waaaaaaaay non-period German ones or... the "clever" boys go for somebody they think is going to be unfindable and therefore can't be proven bad. Like how many wartime Leutnants der Reserve "Schmidt" can there be?Well, aside from Glenn is tracking everybody down (did I mention ?), what does anything scratched "Lt dR Schmidt" ADD to value?Zip. Zero. Nada. Gar nichts. Nichevo.So the SENSIBLE chiselers (literally) ought in today's market to have enough ratsmarts to realize that a botched engraving REDUCES their return, not ADDS to it.I like Sal's piece. It is cleanly written in period style by somebody who did not have to labor over simulating the script, correctly written as a German would have done, to a plausible recipient at a time Only Glenn could confirm matches that person's career. It's unfortunate that somebody polished it to make the lettering easier (for them) to read, thus disturbing the authentic patina. But that doesn't really affect "kaching" value much... simply makes people pause who would not have hesitated at an untouched piece. These days ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe campbell Posted July 8, 2007 Share Posted July 8, 2007 very interesting!i like to make my decision, then read the thoughts.my thumbs-up is based on slightly different thoughts.the "patina" actually appears pretty untouched, and as such,allows at least a basic feeling that the oxidation process hasbeen going on "in the groove" as long as at has on the cross.the style of the lettering gives me warm fuzzies. this leaves me with a feeling like i've had when i've seen thesealong with other pieces in a convolut.the diligence and perspective of the above contributorsjust seals it for me.i could easily live with this cross in my collection.joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted July 8, 2007 Share Posted July 8, 2007 what is the regt? Hard to read... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Boonzaier Posted July 8, 2007 Share Posted July 8, 2007 "Now a Rittmeister der Landwehr-Kavallerie II doesn't seem like anybody's top list for faking, which is a good sign. "Agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
naoki matsumoto Posted July 8, 2007 Share Posted July 8, 2007 What do you guys think?Beautiful,Sal. Great WW1's "KO" !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stogieman Posted July 8, 2007 Share Posted July 8, 2007 My vote is that the wording, abbreviations and style are consistent with period work I have owned/handled in the past. The style and type of engraving is again, IMO, consistent with an authentic piece. I like it Sal, congratulations! Oh yeah, the fact that it is on an issued cross is just a bonus confirmation for me. Clearly, the recipient was proud of what he did to earn this particular KO cross..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sal Williams Posted July 8, 2007 Author Share Posted July 8, 2007 My vote is that the wording, abbreviations and style are consistent with period work I have owned/handled in the past. The style and type of engraving is again, IMO, consistent with an authentic piece. I like it Sal, congratulations! Oh yeah, the fact that it is on an issued cross is just a bonus confirmation for me. Clearly, the recipient was proud of what he did to earn this particular KO cross.....I don't own it Rick. I have been debating it for a while. I liked it but am cautious with engravings (although I always find them very attractive!)I also have been getting some very nice Legion Condor pieces which are affecting my pocket and in turn making me hesitant , but I am so tempted with this piece. What price would you think this cased cross should fetch?Best, Sal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stogieman Posted July 9, 2007 Share Posted July 9, 2007 Easy $6-800 USD. Easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve campbell Posted July 9, 2007 Share Posted July 9, 2007 For that dough you better be 100% sure it's legit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CRBeery Posted July 9, 2007 Share Posted July 9, 2007 Guys, Sorry I'm late to this thread. The cross is sold and arrived yesterday. Sorry Sal. Thank you to everyone that posted information. Glenn, that is great information! The cross is a nice piece and the engraving has the same patina in it as the cross has on the back. Hard to photograph but you can really see it in the daylight with a loop. This cross came from Detlev at one time and has his COA with it. No date on it. At least this will stay in the family.Chet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe campbell Posted July 9, 2007 Share Posted July 9, 2007 nice addition to your - or ANY - collection!well done.joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stogieman Posted July 22, 2007 Share Posted July 22, 2007 Nice grab Chet! Sorry you missed it Sal. It's always nice to see a great piece find a good home! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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