Johanniter Order

[Rod]

Many thanks to all for their response...

At the risk of being a pain I still get the feeling that the order is still not being appreciated.

I can't be more specific .... BUT there seems to be to me more to it than what has been expressed.

Maybe it it just a "old ole boys club" or rather a "van" club but does it not seems more exclusive ???

Sorry to keep hitting this so hard.... BUT ....

Sorry!!!

Rod

I am really tempted to take the "plunge" but i need a bit more encouragement!!!

Rod

[Dave Danner]

Some statistics. As of 8 August 1917, there were the following in the Balley Brandenburg (which covered all of Germany and the Netherlands in 16 commanderies).

• 1 Herrenmeister
• 18 Kommendatoren (one of whom served as Ordenshauptmann)
• 6 Ehrenkommendatoren (including 1 Ordenskanzler, 1 Ordensschatzmeister, 1 Ordenswerkmeister, 1 Ordenssekret?r)
• 8 Ehrenmitglieder (the Kaiserin, the Duke of Anhalt, the Duke of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha, the Queen of the Netherlands, the King and Queen of Sweden, the Prince of Lippe, and the Prince of Schaumburg-Lippe)
• 1,228 Rechtsritter
• 2,975 Ehrenritter

As noted above, the Highest Protector was the Kaiser. The Herrenmeister was Prince Eitel Friedrich. The Ordenshauptmann was Gen.d.Kav. z.D. Hermann Graf von Wartensleben. Edited July 31, 2007 by Dave Danner

[Rod]

That certainly is an impressive group!

Thanks Dave,

Rod

[Rod]

I am still confused (that seems like a constant situation for me) ...

I am still not comfortable with the reasons for the award for this order or for justification for a purchase $$$$$$$$.

I think that for the most part the attraction of awards (at least to me) is for some sort of life and death (heroic) situation such as a military effort.

As I look at a GOLD award which I think would be a pre 1914, can someone give me some idea of what sort of an achievement would warrant the award??????

The design of the award is greatly appealing to me (Prussian eagles are beautiful), but I need to have a better appreciation of what it really represents. Perhaps someone has an award document that would give me an idea of the reason for the award???

I hope my concern makes sense.

The attraction of an award (at least for me) has got to be for more than just being one of the noble "favored" group .

Rod

Edited September 5, 2007 by Rod

[Komtur]

I am still confused (that seems like a constant situation for me) ...

I am still not comfortable with the reasons for the award for this order or for justification for a purchase $$$$$$$$.

I think that for the most part the attraction of awards (at least to me) is for some sort of life and death (heroic) situation such as a military effort.

As I look at a GOLD award which I think would be a pre 1914, can someone give me some idea of what sort of an achievement would warrant the award??????

The design of the award is greatly appealing to me (Prussian eagles are beautiful), but I need to have a better appreciation of what it really represents. Perhaps someone has an award document that would give me an idea of the reason for the award???

I hope my concern makes sense.

The attraction of an award (at least for me) has got to be for more than just being one of the noble "favored" group .

Rod

With this order it is a difficult thing, even if I try to explain it in my own language .

But I will try to give some facts from "Preu?ischer Ordensherold" by Hoeftmann in 1868:

The order was founded in 1812 as a memory to the "Balley Brandenburg des Johanniter-Ordens". This Brandenburg part of the former catholic Johanniter-Orden was dissolved in 1810 by the Prussian king Friedrich Wilhelm III. and the property was confiscated by the prussian state. The former member of the order were allowed to ask for admission to the new Prussian order. It seem to be until 1853 for the new members a kind of order for merits ("... Personen, welche sich um Uns, um Unser K?nigliches Haus, und um Unsere Monarchie verdient gemacht haben ...").

In 1853 the Prussian king Friedrich Wilhelm IV. refounded the "Balley Brandenburg" of the Johanniter-Orden as an protestant organization for public benefit. Besides the determination of the orders structure, there were two main changes in the "Statuten" of 1853. At first the Prussian nobleman, who became a knight of this order had to pay for it: as "Ehrenritter" with a yearly charge of 12 Reichsthaler, as "Rechtsritter" with an admission charge of 100 Reichsthaler. At second a nobleman could ask for admission as "Ehrenritter" than he had to pay a charge of 300 Reichsthaler. The money was used to found hospitals and similar institutions and the knights of the order had to organize this.

So there seem to be a change from an order of merit to a kind of public welfare organization. A Prussian nobleman could show with wearing this order 1. I am a nobleman 2. I have the money to be a member of this club 3. I give some money for public benefit or/and be active in a public welfare organization.

When I see pictures of officers with this order, I?ve got the feeling it is not annoying for some of them, that there is a similarity to the highest Prussian order for military merit

With regards, Komtur.

Today the postman came with this :

Bronze gilt Ehrenritter in poor quality, but I got it on ebay more by chance for about 160 Euro... Can?t say when it was produced, but it is certain no copy, cause it is worn and I believe there is no market for copies of a bronze gilt Johanniter Ehrenritter

[Komtur]

another Rechtsritter

[Rod]

Komtur..... many thanks for an excellent explanation!!!!

Rod

[Komtur]

Emil Graf und Herr von Schlitz, genannt von G?rtz (1851-1914) as Kommendator for Hessen in Johanniter uniform (reproduction of a painting)

[Komtur]

Herrenmeister des Johanniterordens Prinz Albrecht von Preu?en

[Komtur]

unknown Ehrenritter

[Komtur]

Hauptmann von Werst????. Ia der Heeresgruppe Linsingen

with linen cloth Johanniter cross

[Komtur]

Herzog Ernst von Sachsen-Altenburg with metal Johanniter cross

[VtwinVince]

Komtur, I think your man is Hauptmann von Werthern.

[Komtur]

Prinz Eitel Friedrich von Preußen, Herrenmeister des Johanniterordens

[Komtur]

Johanniter Ehrenritter, golden, marked S&W

[Komtur]

Johanniter Rechtsritter, golden, marked F

[Beau Newman]

Nimmergut identifies the "F" marked pieces as being by S. Friedberg & Sohne. I have a hollow gold Rechtsritter by this maker and the workmanship is very nice. I'm a little surprised that I haven't seen their work elsewhere. Jacob's book has very little info. on them. Did they specialize in the Johanniter?

[Utgardloki]

On 23/07/2009 at 10:29, Komtur said:

Emil Graf und Herr von Schlitz, genannt von G?rtz (1851-1914) as Kommendator for Hessen in Johanniter uniform (reproduction of a painting)

So it actually should be exactly this black eagle chain that was sold lately at Thies to a museum, if I remember correctly. Interesting that they did not put this picture in the catalog.

 

 

 

--------------------

Beside that, does anyone know if this sword is still existing?

[RWS]

There's not a great deal that I can add to this; but, perhaps, as an American member of the Johanniter-orden with some German cousins and ancestors, my thoughts may have some value.

The German order no longer restricts its membership to the nobility; perhaps half the men now are from the middle classes, though all must be deemed to have a nobility of character.  As already noted in this thread, the Johanniter diverged from the Roman Catholic main stem (now generally known as the "Sovereign Military Order of Malta") in the 1530s, as nearly all the knights in the Bailiwick of Brandenburg of the Order of Saint John, covering most of the northeastern parts of the Holy Roman Empire, embraced the Reformers' return to the Biblical roots of Christianity; thus, even today, applicants must be adherents of an evangelical ("Protestant") Christian confession.  The Johanniter long continued to send funds to the SMOM and occasionally sent delegates to convocations of the SMOM; projects for re-incorporation of the evangelical Johanniter into the SMOM failed, however, as the not-so-sovereign SMOM was forbidden by popes to allow non-Roman Catholics into the still-Roman Catholic order; the two orders, together with the British "Venerable Order" (a nineteenth-century recreation of the English langue of the mediaeval Order of Saint John), nevertheless co-operate in some service projects and in exposing organisations which inaccurately claim an origin in the crusading Knights Hospitaller, the Order of Saint John.

Each member of the Johanniter today should (and generally does) perform some Christian service, helping the poor, the sick, and the elderly or disabled.  Such service may be individual, or through the man's church or another organization.  Additionally, passage fees are imposed and oblations are paid annually; funded partly by these, numerous hospitals, schools of nursing, retirement homes, ambulance services, and other institutions are operated by the order, mostly in Germany but also in other countries, both in Europe and elsewhere.  The order is active and varied at the level of commanderies.

Though the formal red, white, gold, and black uniform has not been abolished, I've never seen it worn.  On rare occasion, I have seen a German member of the order wear the greenish-brown service uniform of Johanniter volunteers (there are hundreds of thousands of volunteers, both male and female; the four thousand or so knights all are men).  The cross of the order is worn rarely; with one or two exceptions, I've seen it worn only at ceremonies of admission or promotion (a man is admitted as an Ehrenritter, "knight of honor", later invested with the cross, and later still promoted to Rechtsritter, "knight of justice").  There are lapel pins of the unadorned cross, and these are often worn with suits or odd jackets.  Only once or twice have I seen a knight of the order wear the Brustkreuz (the simple linen or metal "star" of the order).

I am glad to be part of the order.  I value the history of the Johanniter, with a long history of helping the least fortunate and actively defending the Christian faith and putting its precepts into practice.  And, yes, I do think that the insigne is handsome!

[1812 Overture]

Are these two people the same person? I think Europeans look alike. . .

[Utgardloki]

@RWS

Thanks for this very intersting insights - in Austria we have both Malta and Johanniter ambulances driving around

 

@1812 Overture

Yes, it seems to be the same person on each picture

Edited February 27, 2020 by Utgardloki

[1812 Overture]

Is it because of a new virus?

[Lukasz Gaszewski]

4 hours ago, 1812 Overture said:

Are these two people the same person? I think Europeans look alike. . .

Definitely the same gentleman, a Hungarian officer. He even has the same set of decorations. On the  second photo he is in the uniform of a major-general.  On the first photo is  he is in the Hungarian attila uniform of hussar cavalry, already in the rank of lieutenant-general.

I think I have seen his photo before, but I cannot recognize him right now.

[Solomon]

Grafregent Ernst zur Lippe-Detmold in Rechtritter-uniform...quite seldom to see on pictures...

And Prince Leopold IV. zur Lippe-Detmold, wearing the order....