Godet cased Iron Half Moon Award

[Alex K]

Hi Rick, I personally agree with what you say that the price of the TWM AT 500 Euro does and did seem excessive based on my own personal experience, and said so in my original reply, based on the price I paid for one, although it was a long time go. I have unfortunately not kept abreast of the what the market, and the collectors are prepared to pay for an item, to me it does seem high, the market does appear to have escalated out of all control.. . These are in the end "Jewellers copies" of the original item awarded by the Turkish government. that said, Godet and others (BB& Co etc) also made copies, these are contemporay and issued/ bought at the appropriate time by recipients, are these therefore "Fake"? It is a well known fact that many German recipients of the "Original " inferior quality Turkish awards bought "Pretty Copies" to wear. As these Copies were produced and made by established medal manufacturers of the period, and at the time, are they to be dismissed as fakes, given the fact that most were bought by people who had actuallly recieved the original.

I would in this instance draw a parallell with the ubiquitus EK/RK 1939-45. these were produced in 1957 as replacements for the previously awarded decorations, are these genuine or fake , given that they were originally produced as an acceptable replacement for theis TR originals

[Guest Rick Research]

Oh I have NO problem with all the "high end" jeweler-made TWMs having been made (mostly) in the 1920s. They were what was actually WORN for the next Historically Interesting 25 years, after all.

They were made and intended as flashy "show off" design upgrades and no doubt about it at all

they are far more impressive LOOKING than what most were actually awarded FOR.

Though I've had and seen some hard-fought, well-deserved "real" awards for these that are swamped by the post-dated "everybody in the Ottoman Empire on 30.10.18" awards that turn most into glitzy Hindenburg Crosses by comparison.

It may be human nature, but LOOKS should not affect retail price. I would agree wholeheartedly with Ed that the embarassingly icky Turkish ISSUE painted pot-metal bent wire pin TWMs should hold pride of collecting place as the "actual" badges-- but those were SO yucky that any German who had one quickly ditched them for a better looking example--even during the war. The painted cheapos are actually thus much rarer than any of the nifty looking multi-piece silver ones... but even I PREFER the good looking ones.

There is certainly wiggle room for personal tastes, preferences, and fascination--which I share--with the seemingly endless variety that can be found in these lowly awards

but the key is LOWLY.

As an olllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllld collector, I am very very alarmed at what increasingly seems to be a graven-in-stone retail Official Price that has inflated these out of all reason.

Though I would CHEERFULLY follow along if, rationally, the same price inflation was applied equally to the hierarchy of SENIOR Ottoman awards. A TWM--any TWM-- selling for more than a Silver Imtiaz Medal with Sabers Bar is like an EK2 going for the same price as a German Cross in Gold. It just makes no sense.

Heck, for $100,000 at TWM-Retail-Constant-?s I might even consider parting with the Admiral.

The only analogy I can come up with regarding this out of control retail collusion is as if a 1939 Black Wound Badge was suddenly being priced at what a REAL 20 July 1944 one goes for... because they're both WW2 Black Wound Badges.

[Kev in Deva]

Hallo Gents,

I would have to agree with the "old fart" noway does it rate 500 Euro!!

Kevin in Deva.

[Ed_Haynes]

Another old fart adding to the chorus. The price seems certifiably insane, but I'd wager someone will pay it.

The "real" ones are, of course, the wartime Ottoman specimens. Some assert that they also awarded the BB&Co ones, though I have never seen convincing evidence (just assertions). Most of these, however, are just postwar jewelers' concoctions, awards from a state that no longer existed (just like the postwar manufacture of all the defunct German imperial awards).

Regardless where these are made, they are Ottoman and not German awards. If German jewelers made (as they did) copies of Tsarist Russian awards, would we see them (and categorise them) as "German awards"? Contemporary Libyan awards are mostly made by Italian firms; should they be in the "Italy" section? Only if you wanted to confuse people? I saw this post only bacause I routinely use the "View New Posts" function. Had I looked in the Ottoman category, where I'd expect to find it, I'd have missed this post.

[Chris Boonzaier]

What gets me is...

BB&co are the most common to be found.

This was a very common award. The award pieces must have been made in boxes and boxes...

In Istanbul you don't really see any other than BB%co and some nice German examples and occasionally the painted one.

If there is another maker of issue pieces..... where are they all?

Best

Chris

[Ed_Haynes]

Tim is the man to ask, and I haven't seen him around for a while. Will try to drag him over here to this exotic venue to see the thread if he reappears.

[Chris Boonzaier]

A tought...

<These were bombastically expensive in Turkey... the German made ones twice as much as in Germany.

[Mike Huxley]

Well thanks for everbody's imput to my question .... it certainly stired up a lot of comments. However, the main question was .... Is it a correct piece, by Godet and is the case right with the makers mark in the lid?

As for price, I also agree that is over the top, but if compaired to some of the prices being asked for BB&Co uncased awards, then it's not out of the ballpark. Helmut Weitze is asking 240 Euros for a BB&Co uncased Heusken is asking over 300 Euros for a simmular piece.

Rick you are correct in all of your comments and I for one would not disagree with you on them. It is a very low award, but how often do you see it cased and when you compare this to some of the prices that are being asked for just the case to certain awards, then what the hell!!!

Most of all though, I still wish to know if you feel from the pictures supplied, that the item is a genuine "Godet" item, including the case.

All the best, Mike

Edited October 28, 2007 by Mike Huxley

[Guest Rick Research]

The star, unquestionably. The case, I don't know. Never got into boxes myself.

But don't let

What Other Dealers WANT

(and notice their stock is NOT flying off the shelves )

influence such a major financial outlay. I cannot imagine how a pricetag like that will ever be able to get flogged on for either investment or emergency fund raising disasters.

I've never had ANY objection to paying locked ward/straitjacket prices for something I fiercely desired (and COULD afford) when said insane purchase is destined to be grave goods but do not get sucked in on the somebody-will-pay-me-MORE "investment" trap. Almost anything would be a better RETURN on that amount of money.

[Mike Huxley]

The star, unquestionably. The case, I don't know. Never got into boxes myself.

But don't let

What Other Dealers WANT

(and notice their stock is NOT flying off the shelves )

influence such a major financial outlay. I cannot imagine how a pricetag like that will ever be able to get flogged on for either investment or emergency fund raising disasters.

I've never had ANY objection to paying locked ward/straitjacket prices for something I fiercely desired (and COULD afford) when said insane purchase is destined to be grave goods but do not get sucked in on the somebody-will-pay-me-MORE "investment" trap. Almost anything would be a better RETURN on that amount of money.

Rick, Not an investment, that's something I've never been bothered with. What I collect is what I want to keep and not to be passed on for a profit.

But cased "Godet" awards are the one thing that I have seen very few of during my collecting time, hence my interest in this piece. The 500 Euro was the original asking price ... but as a well bought up buyer, I don't accept that as the final price.

Maybe your "Evil Twin" can comment on the case?

But thanks for the thumbs-up on the award itself.

Mike

[Mike Huxley]

Not related to this, but offered to me by the same seller is this medalbar.

[paddywhack]

i think the price is so for 3 reasons!(though they are just my opinion)

1) its by godet

2) its got all the lovely enamel so must rare and expensive

3) its cased

in ireland iv seen simple ww1 ek 2s go for E120 here and recently i was talking to a collecter who had bought an ek2nd and payed E80 for and thought it was a fantastic price!!! so when i told him the average price he should pay he wa sa bit shocked(as was i at the price he payed) i honestly i think its the dealer putting the 3 reesons above on the items and then pricing it accordanly, the fact that thousand upon thousand of them were made and that there by no means rare doesnt come into it!

[Claudius]

Oh I have NO problem with all the "high end" jeweler-made TWMs having been made (mostly) in the 1920s. They were what was actually WORN for the next Historically Interesting 25 years, after all.

They were made and intended as flashy "show off" design upgrades and no doubt about it at all

they are far more impressive LOOKING than what most were actually awarded FOR.

Though I've had and seen some hard-fought, well-deserved "real" awards for these that are swamped by the post-dated "everybody in the Ottoman Empire on 30.10.18" awards that turn most into glitzy Hindenburg Crosses by comparison.

It may be human nature, but LOOKS should not affect retail price. I would agree wholeheartedly with Ed that the embarassingly icky Turkish ISSUE painted pot-metal bent wire pin TWMs should hold pride of collecting place as the "actual" badges-- but those were SO yucky that any German who had one quickly ditched them for a better looking example--even during the war. The painted cheapos are actually thus much rarer than any of the nifty looking multi-piece silver ones... but even I PREFER the good looking ones.

There is certainly wiggle room for personal tastes, preferences, and fascination--which I share--with the seemingly endless variety that can be found in these lowly awards

but the key is LOWLY.

As an olllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllld collector, I am very very alarmed at what increasingly seems to be a graven-in-stone retail Official Price that has inflated these out of all reason.

Though I would CHEERFULLY follow along if, rationally, the same price inflation was applied equally to the hierarchy of SENIOR Ottoman awards. A TWM--any TWM-- selling for more than a Silver Imtiaz Medal with Sabers Bar is like an EK2 going for the same price as a German Cross in Gold. It just makes no sense.

Heck, for $100,000 at TWM-Retail-Constant-?s I might even consider parting with the Admiral.

The only analogy I can come up with regarding this out of control retail collusion is as if a 1939 Black Wound Badge was suddenly being priced at what a REAL 20 July 1944 one goes for... because they're both WW2 Black Wound Badges.

$100K -SOLD!

(just kidding) I understand this problem first hand with other pieces I have encountered from dealers but could make the leap to buy them because I felt the price was just too high. And that was when I allowed for a 20-25% price hike because of some superlative feature of the medal/badge. For some time now, I believe dealers list prices very high in order to do three things

1) Suggest a premium condition or rarity that the piece really doesn't have.

2) To earn the very highest profit from the sale of an item to a beginner or an un-informed collector and/or

3) Provide the dealer with an image of sophistication, knowledge and importance in the eyes of the collector.

Chances are that the piece remains unsold (as is the item I'm looking at) or it gets sold to someone who is unaware, or does care he paid too much for it (as it has occured with many of items I looked at)

[bob lembke]

Since I seem to have a great herd of medal collectors knowledgable about the Turkish Half Moon in the room, I might ask a question.

I have some of my father's medals, but not two that he said that he was awarded. (I don't even know if he actually physically received them.) One was the Gallipoli Half Moon. I have satisfied myself that his oral history was correct and that he did fight there with the volunteer Pionier=Kompagnie. He said that he was entitled to the medal. I imagine, as a private, he would have gotten the cheaply-made Turkish version, but would have been entitled to buy a jeweler-made one if he wished. I would like to assemble his few medals, including second examples of his original medals that I have (only the EK II - awarded 1921, I have the document, Hindenburg Cross, and Black Wound Badge - for 4 wounds!, plus a minature lapel bar.), and the two others, when I verify that he actually was awarded them, or at least that it was likely, and case them for display.

Any advice on getting the Half Moon, possibly the Turkish made, or a garden-variety German-made? I occasionally go to Turkey, but the comments suggest that that might not be the best place for this.

And is it reasonable that a German private who actually volunteered and fought at Gallipoli, got malaria, but not wounded, was awarded the right to wear one, as opposed to some Oberleutnant who held a door open for a visiting Turkish general in 1918?

Bob Lembke

[Guest Rick Research]

Mike-- very nice medal bar. The 40 years Third Reich civil service and NO Reserve/Landwehr or career Imperial military long service awards suggests somebody who didn't even do the average routine pre-war annual trainings, and didn't have enough calendar years for a post-war XX Cross. This grade of Z?hringen Lion was only awarded to Lieutenants... so he was probably an Oberleutnant der Landwehr type by war's end. Interesting that whatever his civilian category was, he was active in the Sudetenland 1938 and at Prague in 1939!

Claudius: I only said I'd... fantasize about it.

Bob: feeling entitled and being entitled aren't necessarily the same thing. Most Germans got these conveniently dated 30 October 1918, the day Turkey fell out of the war. If he was out that way in 1915, especially as a junior NCO, chances are very high that he did NOT get one, since they had not devalued to campaign medals (for German personnel) that early. In the 1930s there was a flurry of demand by veterans who had served on Ottoman fronts and gotten nothing, seeking retroactive awards of these as counterparts (in German minds) of the Commemorative Medals then being handed out by Hungary, Austria, Bulgaria, and the Tyrol. But the Turkish War Medal was NOT a commemorative medal and none were awarded in that way that late by the Republic.

IF he had one, it would have been a BB&Co made piece, snce that is what we find in 90% of groups.

[Stogieman]

Hey Mike, the piece is right. If you like it. Buy it. You'll be counting on your fingers and toes the opportunities that arise for one this nice for a smaller price in Europe. Tell our friend I said hello.

[Mike Huxley]

Hey Mike, the piece is right. If you like it. Buy it. You'll be counting on your fingers and toes the opportunities that arise for one this nice for a smaller price in Europe. Tell our friend I said hello.

Hey Stogie ..... my thoughts also and I'll be sure to pass on your greetings

Edited October 30, 2007 by Mike Huxley

[Stogieman]

Just for giggles...... here's a cased BBB&Co. at 356- Euro and climbing......... the case is rather unique and interesting though.......

[Stogieman]

Reverse:

[Stogieman]

The lid is what I really like:

[Alex K]

Hi nice piece, is that ribbon original? it seems a little bit to shiny and new. price seems a little high

regards

Alex

[Mike Huxley]

Just for giggles...... here's a cased BBB&Co. at 356- Euro and climbing......... the case is rather unique and interesting though.......

Finished at 402 Euro's ..... so how does that compare to 500 including shipping with insurance for a "Godet" example????? I guess you guys with cased pieces should start thinking !!!

Oh and Rick R .... maybe not the high end award ... but as all antique collectors say Quality Counts and a "Godet" made pieces in the original case are Quality items.

[Mike Huxley]

As an aside, here's a BB&Co I bought at a local medal fair about a year ago .... It only cost me ?30 so go figure.

[ccj]

I myself harbor deep, unnaturally lustful feelings about Werner-made TWMs.

For me, THEY are the of the . My desire for Werner TWMs burns as brightly as my "special relationship" with Tamara Of Sainted Memory.

Yet even I would not pay more than 200 U.S. dollars for another Werner. At that price, I consider myself insane. At that price, I very likely never will get another one.

But at some point, reality has to intrude.

It's ONLY a TWM!

Rick, that is a beauty! I love TWM th vertical pins.

I have a nice example of a cased TWM but its pin is horizontal.

[GMU]

This is mine. It comes in a Godet marked box, it is made from silver, and it is marked "900" on the back pin. I do not really know if the piece is made by Godet, but it is beautiful and I paid German Marks for it (when they were almost half the price of a US $ !) good old days????????