Trackable medal bar?

[Noor]

Hi,

Is there any chance to track this bar? Probably Navy?

Thanks,

Noor

[Riley1965]

What is the last medal?

Doc

[Deruelle]

It is the officer cross of the Order of the Crown of Italia

Christophe

[Riley1965]

Thanks Christophe!!! It's a Beautiful Order

Doc

[Guest Rick Research]

Ewwwwwwww, ROUGH shape. Somebody ripped the backing off....

ouch.

Yes, navy, but no way to trace without a photo of this guy wearing it because there are NO foreign peacetime awards listed after 1914 and this must date from the mid 1930s.

That Iron Cross looks like it has been squished with pliers. :speechless1:

[saschaw]

That bar has been discussed at least once (I even think it was somewhat more often), but never came up identiefied but remained without name - I think it cannot be identified. Still a very nice and interessting bar.

PS:

to answer your e-mail question: no, not yet. Answered to your e-mail but it came back...

Edited October 16, 2008 by saschaw

[922F]

ex Ludvigsen or Colson???

[Noor]

Thanks guys!

I didn't had much hope to get the name out just always worth to try. So, if the picture pop up, please let me know as well please.

ex Ludvigsen or Colson???

MM?

[Paul C]

Members really need to learn what is tracable and what is not. If you are buying medalbars or ribbonbars that you hope are tracable you are just throwing your money away until you learn! In general, and as a good rule of thumb, any bars that do not have WWI awards, and not just the Hindenburg Cross, are usually untracable. Awards given after 1933 are not in the ranklists and there are no award rolls. All pre 1914 awards are in the Navy or Army(s) ranklists, and not just the Prussian as the Bavarian and Saxons also had their own ranklists with awards. The award rolls from different states awards are published or are in the process of being published.

So at a minimum you need some pre-1914 ranklists and the published award rolls to be able to trace a bar. All of the required ranklists and most of the published award rolls can be purchased for a reasonable price. To continue to ask "is this traceable" and rely upon the good nature of fellow forum members is either the lazy mans way or the cheap mans way. If you are a serious collector then you should have the proper reference material. If you are not a serious collector then why do you want to know who the bar may have belonged to!

[Guest Rick Research]

:Cat-Scratch: There is always that, of course.

I can identify bars NOT because I am a mental giant but because I have amassed an EXCELLENT library over 3 decades of serious study:

and I have not bought a new medal bar since 1997.

Partly this is the result of the genteel poverty which results from being the co-author of Timeless Reference Sources which took years of my life and remain tragically Still Available at prices which do not even BEGIN to compensate for our time and effort.

But these are the tools with which ANYBODY can someday turn into

me.

:speechless1:

[Noor]

Members really need to learn what is tracable and what is not. If you are buying medalbars or ribbonbars that you hope are tracable you are just throwing your money away until you learn! In general, and as a good rule of thumb, any bars that do not have WWI awards, and not just the Hindenburg Cross, are usually untracable. Awards given after 1933 are not in the ranklists and there are no award rolls. All pre 1914 awards are in the Navy or Army(s) ranklists, and not just the Prussian as the Bavarian and Saxons also had their own ranklists with awards. The award rolls from different states awards are published or are in the process of being published.

So at a minimum you need some pre-1914 ranklists and the published award rolls to be able to trace a bar. All of the required ranklists and most of the published award rolls can be purchased for a reasonable price. To continue to ask "is this traceable" and rely upon the good nature of fellow forum members is either the lazy mans way or the cheap mans way. If you are a serious collector then you should have the proper reference material. If you are not a serious collector then why do you want to know who the bar may have belonged to!

First at all, hands up - I am not serious collector just beginner!

Maybe I expressed myself wrongly because I was in hurry to the hospidal - maybe someone have seen pictures, etc which help ID the owner... I do not presume to track or ID person only because HINDENBURG and EK2... and as far I know, thats the one reason here as well - post the pictures, share information, or am I understand something wrong? Also Navy have published many extra books about the officers with they pictures-awards, so, there is always small chance to recognise him..... just greenhorn toughts.

Edited October 18, 2008 by Noor

[Holger]

I am right here ? Is it the Gentleman's Military Interest Club ?

Each forum has his aristocracy, its official and inofficial rules.

Paul C explained now one of the inofficials. I am shocked !

[Ed_Haynes]

Ouch. Quite a lapse of gentlemanly bahevior here.

[Guest Rick Research]

The intention here is EDUCATIONAL:

and what Paul means is the difference between being handed a fish and learning how to fish as the old saying goes.

There is simply no substitution for BUILDING experience-- and to do that REQUIRES a library of reference materials.

Here is a case in point:

One ribbon bar. Scattered sources, combined from numerous places by FOUR people ( Daniel, Glenn, and Dave) on TWO continents, and requiring an actual real live human journey from the former Electorate of Hannover to Berlin, over a period of 16 months, simply to CONFIRM what the existing partial evidence already showed us:

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=26060&hl=

There are not really any "easy" answers.

There is no "easy" way to DO this.

It may APPEAR easy-- especially when somebody posts something and 4 minutes later (or longer depending on length of typing ) there IS an identification

because the End Result is simply the final step on a "journey" of many many YEARS.

I know that I sometimes feel that my "magic powers" are taken for granted--ho hum if it's THAT "easy" it mustn't be a very big deal then--

because when I am good, I am very VERY good...

but there is this to ponder:

I am simply the late George Seymour's APPRENTICE. He died, decades too soon, before I could be fully trained....

and who is going to "take over" from ME?

I am older than my fellow Research Gnomes, though we, too, are all of the same generaion to each other as the Seymour Circle members were to each other.

WHEN WE ARE GONE

and in God's good time that comes when it comes...

then what?

I can think of plenty of things far more enjoyable than reading Rank Lists as if they were the Bible, over and over and over again...

but that's how it's DONE, young ones.

No magic tricks-- just DECADES of weary toil....

:cat:

[Wild Card]

ex Ludvigsen or Colson???

I have checked Eric Ludvigsen?s photographic archives and do not find this bar in there. That does not absolutely mean that he might not have owned it at one time as his archives were a constant ?work in progress?, left unfinished. I can not speak for Tony?s (Colson) collection, but this is a possibility.

Beyond that, I think that this thread has unintentionally raised a couple of interesting points.

1. When I saw that Italian Crown Order hanging out there, I felt that there was a pretty good chance that this bar would be identified, which shows what I know. Although I have been collecting Imperial German orders and decorations for over thirty years, when it comes to identifying medal and ribbon bars, put me in with the ignorant. Although I have a decent library of rank lists, state and court handbooks plus other similar books and material, given a typical medal bar, I am pretty much at a loss at searching out recipients.

2. I feel that those very few among us who do this work are blessed with a real talent. They may not even recognize it as such, but there is, as it is said, a method to this madness. I have been absolutely amazed at not just that the job being done, but often how it is done so quickly; and, I might add, with such modesty.

Of course, recently developed spreadsheets (constructed by these ?chosen few?) are making this work infinitely easier. Nevertheless, it still takes a lot of both time and talent.

3. Kind of related to my first point, is the fact that the majority of the rest of us have a lack of understanding as to exactly what is traceable, what is not, and why; but slowly we are learning.

I have said this before and I will say it again. The collecting community is a constantly changing entity. Consequently we gain new members, who are beginning the endless learning process, almost every day just as we, sadly, loose others who often take so much knowledge with them. We all have our specific interests, hence a strength of knowledge, in a sometimes very confined area. That member who asks an innocent question about whether the horse?s tail on a Brunswick Henry the Lion knight?s badge should be up or down may someday have an opportunity to tell you why that cheap looking thing that you picked up at a garage sale with some ?good stuff? is actually from Mongolia and is worth a couple of thousand dollars.

Please Gentlemen, patience.

Regards,

Wild Card

[Schießplatzmeister]

Hello everyone:

Nicely stated Wildcard.

We must remember that we have chosen this as our hobby for a variety of reasons, but (I hope) mostly because we enjoy it. Every day I learn something new about my areas of interest. Those of us who have been around awhile doing this (I do not count myself among them yet) have a duty in my opinion to guide and help others. I often (with gratitude) remember the countless selfless folks who had patiently explained things to me so that I could understand fully. Some of these folks are right here on GMIC. I hope to someday have the priviledge of sharing what little information that I have gathered over the years with others (there is no higher compliment than to be asked for your "expertise").

Best regards,

"SPM"

Only the truly ignorant know everything.

The only "stupid" question is the one that is not asked.

[Guest Rick Research]

Guidelines to "search parameters possible" posted (say that 5 times fast)

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=31600&hl=

[Paul C]

Rick, Thanks for adding the link. While my post may have been a bit cranky I was trying to make a point. The point being that the tools, information and knowledge is available. There are many members on the forum who are willing to share the knowledge and time to educate the new collector/researcher. When I see a new member asking "how to questions" I always offer to help. That is the purpose of this forum, the free exchange of knowledge. I don't believe that they purpose of this forum is have knowledge and information flow down a one way street.

Edited October 19, 2008 by Paul C

[Guest Rick Research]

TIME is, of course, another "issue."

While I am about to finish adding officer data to the Mecklenburg Strelitz's MStMV2 Rolls today (maybe tomorrow) and will thus be tempoirarily at loose ends again until Taskmaster Daniel sends me some new Rolls work...

it is far more often the case that research takes H-O-U-R-S than minutes.

I consider myself an admirably nice fellow (the Vatican STILL has not returned my calls about beatification-in-life ) but there comes a point when...

Mister Lincoln freed the slaves, after all.

So FEW gnomes. So LITTLE TIME. :cheers:

[larsb001]

Hi Paul, in some of the previous replys you made some remarks in which I strongly disagree:

"To continue to ask "is this traceable" and rely upon the good nature of fellow forum members is either the lazy mans way or the cheap mans way. If you are a serious collector then you should have the proper reference material. If you are not a serious collector then why do you want to know who the bar may have belonged to!"

"I don't believe that they purpose of this forum is have knowledge and information flow down a one way street."

I collect miniatures only, the majority would be singles but I do have a few chains. Rick identitified one for me recently (although there were some insecurity about it) and for that I am GRATEFUL! I am one of the persons that don't have any rank lists and I will never buy one. But I would still be interested in adding a name to a chain if it is possible. To you this may be information flowing down a one way street, the lazy mans way or the cheap mans way. Admitted again, I will never own a rank list because I don't know how to handle it or more true, I don't have the patience.

But the beauty of a forum like this is that we are anymonous and you don't really know who you are helping or how others have contributed or will contribute to our hobby?

Did you knew that I was the editor of the Danish Orders & Medals Society for a period of 12 years or that I am beeing thanked in the foreword of at least 10 books (some of them may even be in your library)? My strength is NOT digging out information of an archive or reading rank lists but I have contributed to our hobby because my strength is that I can prepare a manuscript for the printers, I can structure a book or grant access to my library, collection or personnal archive and knowledge, directing an author to relevant collectors or whatever.

Hmm, I believe that my point really is that you should acknowledge that we all have different weaknesses, strengths and interests - what could appear to be a one way communication when we ask for help could easily end up beeing a circular communication when a book or article is published although it may take some years before it pays off!

Regards, Lars

[Paul C]

Lars, You are correct and your contributions to this hobby are extensive. I guess my original post will generate comments, maybe a bit of anger, but I also hope it will get people thinking about what they are giving back to the hobby. We all have something to contribute.

[Ed_Haynes]

And I guess we'd all be better citizens if we bought copies of all the rank lists? Does anyone have these availabvle? Maybe on CD-ROM?

[Guest Rick Research]

Now that you mention it....

But you're excused Ed. Waaaaaay outside your normal interests. Luckily, this frees you up to do what only you can do best.

"we all have different weaknesses, strengths and interests" is so true! That is precisely why the Research Gnome Collective WORKS.

Pre-internet, we'd have been laboring in isolated obscurity. Now... multiple brains at work towards a common goal, on individual but coordinated paths. The work is divided up-- and the very real expense of acquiring references is reduced

BUT anybody committed to focussed German Imperial awards research really DOES need at least a basic, thorough Home Library for initial searching. There is no substitution for the Course Of Home Study.

I just finished transcribing, correcting, and adding all the additional data that I can to Mecklenburg Strelitz's WW1 Rolls. Off they went to the other gnomes, more adept at other areas (the bane of my life-- wartime reserve Lieutenants, for instance). Took me 52 days of work to do, but as of today there are now SIX people on two continents who will be able to enter a name and instantly see when and if a Cross for Distinction in War was bestowed--something even the Orders Chancery back then couldn't do! .

"Instant" results... after 52 days work. :cheers:

[Noor]

Regarding Navy rank list and CD-s.... I bought them. I have just psychologically hard and busy times here and I must say - I expressed myself wrongly as well because the rush.

Contribution.... not much because like I said - I am beginner but I learn every day a lot and maybe in the future. At the moment I am putting together materials about imperial Germany awards (main reason is learn myself and get them done in my first language, so others, can use it as well).

[Wild Card]

And I guess we'd all be better citizens if we bought copies of all the rank lists? Does anyone have these availabvle? ...

Over the years, I have found auctions such as Thies, Kube and Hanseatisches Auktionshaus to be good sources for these books. Jeff Floyd also comes up with a few from time to time as well.

In terms of dealers with inventory, Helmut Weitze often has some good material in stock.