Wurttemberg Golden Military medal

[notned]

Hello Gents,

This gem has arrived in the post!

It has the Wurttemberg Golden Bravery medal

This medal could be real gold, but it looks to me, to be the gold wash that happened to them later in the war.

It also has the 'k Swenkler' mark under the bust.

Apart from getting a jeweller to test and ascertain the metal used in this medal is there any other way to test and find out?

It has this cool makers tag on the reverse and the HK is from C.E.Junker

and it is a pretty rough cut unit...

Pics are here!

Enjoy!

Regards

Paul

[notned]

The Reverse

[Wild Card]

Hi notned,

Very nice little group there. Regarding your bravery medal - is it marked? As I am given to understand it, the very early (Colonial campaigns) Wilhelm issue medals were marked 967, then (early WWI) 333 and then no mark. The first two, of course, represent the gold content; no mark being a gold/gilt plated piece.

The gold marks are punched into the rim of the medal, next to the ?se. I hope that this information is of some help; and if not acurate, will be corrected.

Best wishes,

Wild Card

[notned]

Thanks Wild Card, ...i have inspected the medal...

it appears to be the gilt type. there are no marks.

But still a nice bar anyways....

Do you know how many were awarded?

Best regards

Paul

[Jason]

Hi Paul, nice pick up. This is my little pre-1934 pair, the golden medal is marked "835" on the smaller ring. I heard somewhere once there were something like 4000-5000 awarded but can't be sure.

cheers Jason

[Wild Card]

Hello again. Nimmergut states that 4.411 of these (gold) medals were awarded along with 207,003 of the silver medals.

[Stogieman]

I've had gilt, I've had 333 gold ones....... never a 835 though. That would be too fabulous to even consider!!

[Bob Hunter]

Nice looking bar, Paul. Hope it tests out as that would be quite a find! Also keep an eye out for Sedlatzek marked EKI's. These are the finest quality bar none!

Edited November 13, 2005 by Bob Hunter

[Claudio]

Dear All,

There is an interesting threat on a German Forum about this medal (W?rttemberg Golden Military Medal):

http://forum.sammlergemeinschaft-deutscher...fb5557781007954

Particularly there is a very interesting comment of a quite well known and specialized expert in W?rttemberg's Orders and Medals, Mr. Bretzendorfer, who is also a good dealer of Imperial decorations:

Es wurde festgelegt, dass die goldenen Medaillen mit einem Gewicht von 4 Dukaten auszupr?gen sind. 1 Dukat = 3,40 g.

Das hei?t: 4 Dukaten = 13,6 Gramm und so viel m?ssen / sollen echt goldene MVM wiegen - und das tun sie auch.

Wenn man nun hochkr?tiges Gold nimmt wie 22 kar?tiges - dann sind die Medaillenrohlinge deutlich d?nner !!! als bei minderwertigem Gold. soll hei?en - hochkar?tige echt goldene Medaillen sind gerade mal halb so dick / stark wie die aus 333er Gold. Und die von dir angesprochenen 585er Medaillen hats gegeben, die sind nicht mehr ganz d?nn, aber auch noch nicht so dick wie die 333er goldenen. (ca. 500 hergestellte in 585er Gold, ca. 150 hergestellte in 22 kar?tigem Gold und der gro?e Rest von rund 3800 in 333 Gold). Wichtig ist, alle Beliehenen haben immer eine ECHT goldene Medaille erhalten, bis zum letzten Kriegstag. Daraus ergibt sich die Erkenntnis, dass Silber vergoldete St?cke bestenfalls St?cke aus den 2oer Jahren sind, viel wahrscheinlicher aber von Vergoldern aus den 70ern und 80ern.

Ich habe noch nie einen gesicherten Nachlass gesehen, bei dem eine Silber vergoldete Medaille war.

W?rttemberg ist ein sparsames Land gewesen - was die Urkunden angeht. Ich kenne keine offiziell verausgabte Urkunde zur silbernen bzw. goldenen MVM. Nur auf Regimentsebene ausgestellte Besitzzeugnisse in mal guter und mal schlechter Aufmachung. Aber das Kriegsministerium hat keine Urkunden ausgegeben - wohlgemerkt im Weltkrieg. F?r China- und Afrikak?mpfer gibt es sehr wohl offizielle Urkunden.

He says that only golden medals have been given out during WWI (333 or 585 Gold) and that you could easily distinguish these ones by the weight. He says also that he never has seen a silver gilted medal which came from a well documented source. Mmm... interesting!

Ciao,

Claudio

Edited November 13, 2005 by Claudio

[Stogieman]

Hi Claudio, is it possible we might have the same situation here that we see with the Saxon Silver FAM?? there are numerous fire-gilded examples floating around and they were never issued that way!

[Claudio]

Yes Stogie...

Let's say that if I had to buy such medal I would make sure that it's a 333 or 585 Gold medal...

Ciao,

Claudio

[notned]

Thanks Bob!

it appears to be the gilt version...

Claudio, now this Bretzendorfer....you are saying that he is saying that there was never any gilt ones awarded????

So is my one a fake???

I can return it if necessary...but i do like the bar.....

Comments encouraged!

Cheers Gents

Paul

Edited November 13, 2005 by notned

[Claudio]

Hi Paul,

Are you sure the medal is silver gilted? Did you weight the medal?

Bretzendorfer is known to be very knowledgeable militaria dealer, specialized particularly in W?rttemberg's Orders & Medal pre-1918. I like your bar, but since I am "ignorant" on these medals, I would tend to rely on Bretzendorfer's comment. He had also a nice Golden military medal lately on his website for sale and a couple of years ago Detlev Niemann's had also an Officer's medal bar for sale. I remember that Detlev's medal bar was really nice, though pricy. If you want to "real thing" and not risk, I would send it back, wait a real Golden one and be prepared to pay more.

Just my 2 cents.

Ciao,

Claudio

P.S.: I enclose Detlev Niemann's medal bar with the real Gold military (bravery) medal.

[Christian L]

interesting question on the silver-gilted and real golden one.

what makes me thinking, that it might be good is, that the bar was made by a big supplier of medals, decorations and ribbons ... after the first ww.

so the owner was able to have the gold value of the issued example (perhaps for selling) and a shiny one on the medalbar as well. (like the typical spangenst?cke)

so if you get a silver-gilted one with documents and other awards and the seller states that its an issued and original one - than i would say MADE UP GROUP

but if you get one on a medalbar (not the home-made style typ - the tailor made ones) than the possibility is bigger of being good - at least in my opinion (because of the reason given a few lines before)

christian

[Stogieman]

I think both view points are probably true. The Gold (issued pieces) WBN was gold, even during WW1. A silver gilt piece could simply be an individual attempt by the recipient to either raise some cash, or enhance his silver piece.

But what Claudio says is true on several accounts:

A) not an officially issued/sanctioned piece

B) cannot be claimed to be one

Also, I have just looked at some photos from Wild Card of a different example in gold that I am awaiting a couple of answers to questions on!!

[Christian L]

yes, thats sure - no possibility to be an issued medal!

but compared to the price of real golden ones and the look of the medalbar a definately better "spacefiller" than g?de awards

christian

[Deruelle]

Hi,

Nice bar

I love the back of the medal bar with Sedlatzek. I have one medal bar with the same maker but the adress is not the same. Does anyone has a clue ? In the Jacob's book, Court jewelers of the world, the adress is Friedrichstrasse 205. Please find my jeweler marks

Christophe

[Wild Card]

Gentlemen,

I would like to take a moment to condense some of what is above and, at the same time, fill in a few gaps.

First, I would like to go on record as saying that there is probably no individual more learned on the subject of the orders and decorations of W?rttemberg than Uwe Bretzendorfer; and his information (compliments of Claudio in post #9) rings absolutely true.

His point, that only gold medals were issued during the war, is is further substantiated by Nimmergut who lists the following awards:

1914 = 106 medals of 22kt gold

1914/15 - 502 medals of 14kt gold

1915/18 - 3,804 medals of 8kt gold

Interestingly, Nimmergut also recognizes gold plated medals made by Paul Meybauer of Berlin from 1914 on. These particular medals do not have the ?Schwenzer? mark. This all leads me, at least, to consider that the use of ?wearer?s copies? (Uh oh, here we go again) was, for these medals, accepted and fairly widespread, which does make some sense.

Two last points. First, I don?t think that it has been mentioned - the ?333? mark is, at least on my medal, located on the side of the ?se, and, therefore, easy to miss. Secondly, I would like to point out that the W?rttemburgers raised the art of fire gilding to it?s highest levels; but more on that some other time.

I hope that this information is helpful.

Best wishes,

Wild Card

Edited November 14, 2005 by Wild Card

[Chris Boonzaier]

825 is a silver measurement isnt it?

[notned]

Thanks Gents,

I am now a little wiser on the practice's of the Wurttembergers with these particular medals.

As Christian and Stogieman points out, it seems to be widely accepted that the recipients must 'cash' in on the Gold ones and have a gilt one made for the appearances sake on their bars.

I guess this is the only logical explanation for this happening.

Thanks for all your comments! both to Claudio and WildCard too!

Its all knowledge gained.

Regards

Paul

[Claudio]

Hi Paul,

I was browsing on Ebay when I saw this:

http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6226334062

Too bad that the ring of the Golden 333 Medal is missing...

Ciao,

Claudio

[Stogieman]

Yes, but a very nice little group.. especially with the documentation!

[notned]

Hi Claudio,

Yes i had seen that wee group.

It is nice indeed as Stogie says, its good especially due the documentation.

Thanks gents

Cheers,

Paul.

[Stogieman]

Hi Claudio, wasn't the number of WGBM under 100 for WW1?? I'm drawing a blank here.........

[JensF.]

I also heard from different sources that only real gold examples were awarded. I also had a longer talk with Uwe Bretzendorfer some years ago about this topic and he told me the same Claudio posted. All gilt examples with the die-maker "K. Schwenzer" were gold plated later and the most gilt examples without die-maker are wearers copys like the one below: