7 medal award bar w/ Zähringer Lion & Hohenzollern Knight's Cross

[nazfrank]

Hello from northern Arizona (naz) .. I have a 7 medal award bar. I suspect that it may have been awarded to a Lt. Otto Winter. Is there anyway to look up what awards Lt. Winter received? From the awards on this bar, does it look like it was a Lieutenant's? And .. from members experience, what is an award bar like this worth? Thank you and a happy New Year to all and families, Frank

[Daniel Krause]

I would say Major in 1914, LtCol in the war, probably retired as Char. Colonel.

No Lt.

Best regards

Daniel

[Guest Rick Research]

Yes-- the Red Eagle 4th Class and Baden Z?hringen Lion-Knight 1st Class indicate this officer was a major before the war. Might have been a Lt Col at the start of the war and ended up as a full Colonel.

I don't turn up any immediate matches either, but then all our collective research has been on 1914-18 awards, not pre-war Orders.

Since he was in a Baden regiment in 1902 and apparently still was when the war started, he should be sought ammong the Majors in Baden regiments in 1914.

[Guest Rick Research]

Nope. I've just gone and checked all the Baden regiments in 1914. He had left before then--explaining lack of a WW1 Baden award on there.

This means only a long search backwards from 1913 looking for officers with these pre-war awards who LEFT a Baden unit for reassignment in some NON-Baden unit...

fairly common from ranks of Majors up since they were then in a general promotion pool and went to any unit that had a vacancy when they could be promoted.

I'd say definitely a Colonel's bar and possibly retired with a demobilization brevet of Major General. He could have had a pre-war Prussian Crown Order 3rd Class that was replaced by a wartime Crown 2nd with Swords.

[nazfrank]

First, thank you for your time.

Are the rolls that you are looking through online? If so, I'd continue the search for you. Below is a picture of the back. It has a small metal tag that says GODET & SOHN, BERLIN .. if that helps.

[Guest Rick Research]

I'm back-- and I've found him.

Now I need to check with 3 people to CONFIRM my identification and see about getting a portrait photo of him, since he was a regimental commander.

You ask about "value," and this is a point where my own interests (historical and genealogical versus cash) come into conflict.

Understand where I am coming from, as a lonnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnng time member here and the best Imperial German officer researcher in North America, with over 30 years of experience, who has just spent over an hour (that's about 316 Mortal Years) looking up-- and FINDING your anonymous medal bar's original owner--

It has been my UNHAPPY and experience that there exist large numbers of people who assume that I am a moron, here to put free extra MONEY into THEIR pockets, with all the effort and experience, not to mention expense of decades of reference book acquisition, all MY "waste of time" for their own instant, no sweat pure pig profit.

So what is it you intend to DO with this medal bar? I realize this is your first posting here, so perhaps you are unaware of the HUGE volume of posts my fellow Research Gnomes and I have made, endless hours (sometimes literally years) searching things out

for COLLECTORS who intend to provide Good Homes for their treasures.

NOT to add Free Money to eBay and show sellers...

and in this online global internet world... NOBODY can get away with that any more.

So while this may seem "rude," understand VERY clearly that if all you want is a dollar figure so you can PROFIT off somebody else's expertise-- and you really don't give a rat's rear end about ticking off the most skilled researcher on the continent or my colleagues here and in Europe...

then YOU don't "need" the owner's name, since what you have is the Dollar Value of the awards on this bar--and that figure anybody with the current Official Price Guides can tell you. I don't HAVE those since it's not about MONEY for me.

If you are a collector who intends (and that does NOT mean, Gee Circumstances Have "Unexpectedly" Changed, Next Week On E-Bay-- I Have been "around" for a very very VERY long time and heard THAT old crock a million times ) then we shall cheerfully provide the information on the bar's original owner.

Understand that I have been burned by greedy pigs too often and for too long to have much interest in ever doing so again.

I hope you are one of us, and will take part in the community of our forums with this as the starting point for the amazing realities of Imperial German officer research.

Toss this on the market and screw-me for more money, and the world is no longer anyplace to hide. Sounds brutal, but is meant well, to get things straight up front.

I can be fooled once-- and some people think that is "worth" it (a free dollar and they'd pimp their children and sell their grannies, obviously). But mine is a One Strike permanent ban list... and while the internet is global our SOURCES are not. There is no "source" online but US-- and we are ALL right here at GMIC.

If you simply want to SELL it, then sell it here and you will find no better or more enthusiastic market. But the original owner's name goes to the BUYER (provided he is an active GMIC friend), that's all. If this has seemed "easy" because it was "quick" (and that's not for anybody but ME to judge, since it was MY time and I Do Not Have To Do This) that's not because it IS "easy" to do-- it's because we are good at this, know where to look, when to look, and how to look-- and have amassed a lifetime's worth each of hard to find and expensive period research materials so we have what it takes to FIND answers. While we do not mind Giving It Away to WORTHY folk, NOTHING us off like people who think we've got nothing better to do than be their slaves. Just understand this is not a tirade at you specifically and individually but at years of bad people taking advantage. Just want that straight, up front. 2009 is going to be the beginning of Ricky's Not A Slave Any More, and today's Day 1.

Happy New Year-- you've got a real prize here. Rick

[Paul C]

Frank, the value of the bar is about $2500.

[Ed_Haynes]

Well said, Rick. And I didn't note "Antiques Road Show" as any part of the forum title.

[joe campbell]

rick-

your gentle - but firm! - explanation is worth

AT LEAST $250!!!

gorgeous bar. hope it finds a nice home.

joe

[Wild Card]

Well said Rick and as you know, I completely support your position on this issue.

There is just one point that I would like to expand upon; your statement - ?...what you have is the Dollar Value of the awards on this bar--and that figure anybody with the current Official Price Guides can tell you.?

My experience is that, while very handy for general reference, ?current Official Price Guides? can be, and often are, off the mark. For example, the the Hohenzollern knight with swords on this bar has an OEK (?Official Price Guide?) value of 2200 Euro. During the past year, we have seen the Euro range from about $1.60 to below $1.30. So, at this rate, we are talking $3,500 to $2,800; and yet a well known and respected dealer currently has one for sale at $1,250, which is much closer to the market. The same price guide lists Braunschweig Waterloo medals at 335 Euro - Those were the days!

That is a very nice bar nazfrank.

Regards,

Wild Card

[HeikoGrusdat]

first days of the year and Sascha will be breathless again seeing this great bar.... :jumping:

[nazfrank]

Good morning,

I want to thank everyone for the interest in this award bar. I've received messages asking me if I want to sell it and the answer is, yes, I want to sell it.

I'm not a collector and in several messages with Rick back and forth he has told me that he will tell the buyer all the information about the Major General to whom this bar was awarded to. All Rick wants is that the bar go to a good collector home and I couldn't agree with him more.

That said, I've agreed with Rick to offer it to the forum members here. With approximate pricing and history of the bar established, it'll always be worth my asking price or more.

Id like to get $3250 for the award bar or make me an offer. Shipping will require full insurance coverage and signature (must be signed for) delivery. You pick the shipping method, I have accounts with both FedEx and the USPS. FYI, I've been a Paypal member since 2000 and on eBay since 1998, never having received a negative. I also have other German memorabilia from this find, mostly printed matter and only a small amount military related. My eBay ID is ... smartmove ... Also, some countries have a limit on insurance coverage on priority or express via USPS which means it will have to ship via expedited service in order to get the required coverage.

Thank you and happy New Year to all and families,

Frank

[Guest Rick Research]

I would like to thank Frank for providing the GMIC community with first dibs on this bar.

I do know who the original recipient was and you will be most pleased to have his rather eccentric (for an infantry regimental commander) career details. For a line regiment commander, he was one of the best.

[saschaw]

Nice bar, thanks for showing!

For example, the the Hohenzollern knight with swords on this bar has an OEK (?Official Price Guide?) value of 2200 Euro.

I don't know what "OEK" you're using, but my Nimmergut OEK lists it at 640,- Euro for the silver gilt WWI issue. However, a nice bar and I wish I could afford it...

[gregM]

I am glad to see that both parties came to a mutual understanding.. Especially without any bruised feelings

or loss of blood.

Rick,

I wholeheartedly understand and support you on this.

Frank,

welcome to the forum.

[Guest Rick Research]

Yup. This one really really REALLY needs to go to a Good Home.

[Claudio]

@ Sascha:

If it has been a pure Gold HHOX I could unsterstand Wildcard's statement... but the HHOX is definately a silver gilt piece one... Is it marked (on the botton rim of the cross)? It looks like a Godet ...

@ Frank: Thank you Frank to have come out in the open to offer your bar for sale here on this forum.

I am very tempted ... ;-)

Ciao,

Claudio

Nice bar, thanks for showing!

I don't know what "OEK" you're using, but my Nimmergut OEK lists it at 640,- Euro for the silver gilt WWI issue. However, a nice bar and I wish I could afford it...

Edited January 3, 2009 by Claudio

[Christian J]

@ Sascha:

If it has been a pure Gold HHOX I could unsterstand the Wildcard's statement... but the HHOX is definately a silver gilt piece one... Is it marked (on the botton rim of the cross)? It looks like a Godet HHOX...

Ciao,

Claudio

A nice silver-gilted one sold hours ago for 614E.

[Claudio]

A nice silver-gilted one sold hours ago for 614E.

This is a Golden HHOX... this piece can be valued around Eur 2'000.-.... For a silver gilted HHOX could fetch between Eur 600 and 800, depending on the conditions and markings (938, W 938, Godet, etc.) There are also some bronze gilted HHOX which were produced after WWI which can be valued even less (Eur 250-350).

Ciao,

Claudio

[Claudius]

Hello all:

Soooo...is it sold? Is there a sale pending???

-Claudius

[Guest Rick Research]

The HOH3X is indeed "only" a silver gilt one, end of 1916.

Could we have a close up on the center of that piece--the second cross? It looks as if the disk eagle's wingtips on the side facing the 3rd award may be repaired?

[Wild Card]

Nice bar, thanks for showing!

I don't know what "OEK" you're using, but my Nimmergut OEK lists it at 640,- Euro for the silver gilt WWI issue. However, a nice bar and I wish I could afford it...

YIKES!

Too much Holiday Revelry up here in the mountains.

It is not the book (OEK 2007/2008 edition), but the reader.

I picked up on the Kreuz der Inhaber mit Schwertern, #1794, not the Kreuz der Ritter mit Schwertern, #1789.

I apologize for the confusion. At the same time I will say again, while a good reference and despite the author?s efforts, the OEK prices are often quite off the mark.

Thank you for pointing out my faux pas.

Best wishes,

Wild Card

[saschaw]

Soooo...is it sold? Is there a sale pending???

I think there is...

Wild Card, no problem and no offense. Just good here are more than just one people. ;)

[nazfrank]

Morning all,

Sorry 'bout the delayed response. I live in a remote area in the norwest Arizona desert and my internet is via a wireless tower relay system. It acted up yesterday and all we could do was limp around waiting 2 minutes for a page to open. We accept that as normal out here and just have to wait till it's up again. I'm off the grid to the point that I haul every drop of water that I use in.

I have promised the person who made the first offer to wait till Sunday to allow him time to consult a friend in Germany. On the enameling, the Lion and the Red Eagle are 110% perfect, on the Hohenzollern award the enamel around the very circumference edge of the center enameled section is thin and the dark under metal is showing through. I've louped it and it's not damage or repair. I'll try and get an extreme close-up and post it later, Ive got an auction to run to now .. http://www.depuyauction.com/jan3.htm .. anybody see anything they need??

In the mean time, I'll give you folks something to sort out .. I've got this book up on eBay and 4 days after the auction started I discovered what was written in the assignment paperwork. The book was signed out to SS-Oberstgruppenfuehrer Kurt Daluege. When I was told this, I googled his name to find out who he was (yes, a real amateur here) and read that he had a heart attack and retired in May of '43 but the date on the paperwork is November of '43. Just a case of keeping the old boss up on things?? or a book request?? .. I believe that the book never made it to him as I'm fairly sure it came out of Berlin.

Yes, I'm pushing my wares here !! and giving you all a heads up as I'm going to let the auction run to completion. The current .99 price is a bargain. Auction is here: 220336780276

Frank

(sorry about the long post .. sitting here having my coffee and just typing away with two fingers)

Edited January 3, 2009 by nazfrank

[nazfrank]

Hello everyone,

The medal bar has been sold. I'd like to thank everybody here. The members of this forum are the most professional and knowledgeable group of great, all-a-round serious collectors on the web. People who know the subject matter, post in a professional way and smile when they scold you ... Great place you've got here.

Thank you again for all the direction and assistance and God bless,

Frank

Edited January 4, 2009 by nazfrank