Mongolia Sukhbaatar Order

[Ed_Haynes]

I am going to stop by for auction preview. I'll ask Dmitry for his opinion, but I doubt he can predict.

I'd be really interested in your preview thoughts, on both Mongolian and early USSR things. I have no intention in fishing in this pond, though I am tempted. My gear isn't big enough, I suspect.

[new world]

I'd be really interested in your preview thoughts, on both Mongolian and early USSR things. I have no intention in fishing in this pond, though I am tempted. My gear isn't big enough, I suspect.

Well, I went to the auction preview.

This time around Dmitry has great collection of early Sovier Republican awards.

I have never seen so many republican awards together! It was rare opportunity to sit down and hold them all in your hands. The workmanship and the details are simply amazing. Early Soviet awards were truly special, contunuing traditions of tsarist school of marksmen.

It's not your late badges where everything is stamped out as one massive silver / gold chunk of metal with one or two elements attached. No, some of these early awards were composed of multiple pieces, each tiny element enameled and attached with rivets or miniatire hooks.

The awards look so fragile, one has to wander how they were worn. Take Odessa Criminal Police badges - I assume these wee for everyday wear, but the construction looks very fragile to me. You begin to picture brave detectives chasing criminals on the dark city streets... Just the fact that these amazing awards have survived through the years is astonishing.

Then your your eyes shift to the page of the catalogue where you see price estimate for some of these treasures - small fortunes at $20,000, $30,000, $40,000 - and you realize real meaning of the word...

William

[Bob]

I put some bids in for Mongolian items at the upper end of what I considered reasonable... judging from above, I guess I'll not see my money leaving my account!

[new world]

Realized SB prices (plus auction premium):

SB Screwback - 2246 $3,250

SB Pinback - 2247 $2,000

William

[Ed_Haynes]

Thanks. Ouch.

Though, somewhat strangely, many of the Mongolian lots went unsold?

No Russian interest in these?

Edited January 15, 2008 by Ed_Haynes

[Bob]

OK, so I get WAY outbid on the screwback... and to a lesser degree on the pinback. Add the auction fee and you've got 2 pretty expensive awards there...

[Bob]

Get 'm as long as you can below 3K

RECENTLY SOLD

pinback

- USD 1.870, nr 1.918, Nota Bene - JANUARY 2007

- USD 1.880, nr 1.785, Nota Bene - JANUARY 2007 (boxed)

- USD 1.950, nr 860, www.russianglory.com - MARCH 2007

- EURO 1.600 (roughly 2.100 USD), nr 1.183, www.huesken.com - MARCH 2007

- EURO 1.650 (roughly 2.200 USD), nr 1.514, www.huesken.com - JUNE 2007

- EURO 1.300 (roughly 1.700 USD), nr 1.246, private seller - SEPTEMBER 2007

- EURO 1.600 (roughly 2.200 USD - before fees!), nr 1.514, Andreas Thies October auction - OCTOBER 2007

- USD 1.850, nr 1.947, Nota Bene - NOVEMBER 2007

- USD 2.150, nr 1.837, www.collectrussia.com - NOVEMBER 2007

- USD 1.950, nr 1.437, Nota Bene - JANUARY 2008

- USD 1.400 (excl. 15% auction premium), nr 1,246, Dmitry Markov auction - JANUARY 2008

screwback

- USD 1.680, nr 644, Nota Bene - NOVEMBER 2006

- EUR 1.630 (roughly 2.150 USD), nr 585, Albert GMIC - MAY 2007

- USD 2.650, nr 644 (again!), Nota Bene - OCTOBER 2007 (boxed)

- USD 2.900, nr 640, www.collectrussia.com - NOVEMBER 2007

- USD 2.500, nr 777, somewhere in Russia - DECEMBER 2007

- USD 3.250 (excl. 15% auction premium), nr 427, Dmitry Markov auction - JANUARY 2008

CURRENTLY FOR SALE

pinback

- USD 2.450, nr 1.764, <a href="http://auction-su.com/-,itemname,160966,id,auctiondetails" target="_blank">http://auction-su.com/-,itemname,160966,id,auctiondetails</a>

- USD 2.750, nr 1.635, www.collectrussia.com

screwback

- USD 3.500, nr 227, Coinsell (on eBay)

[Bob]

Slight error corrected

RECENTLY SOLD

pinback

- USD 1.870, nr 1.918, Nota Bene - JANUARY 2007

- USD 1.880, nr 1.785, Nota Bene - JANUARY 2007 (boxed)

- USD 1.950, nr 860, www.russianglory.com - MARCH 2007

- EURO 1.600 (roughly 2.100 USD), nr 1.183, www.huesken.com - MARCH 2007

- EURO 1.650 (roughly 2.200 USD), nr 1.514, www.huesken.com - JUNE 2007

- EURO 1.300 (roughly 1.700 USD), nr 1.246, private seller - SEPTEMBER 2007

- EURO 1.600 (roughly 2.200 USD - before fees!), nr 1.514, Andreas Thies October auction - OCTOBER 2007

- USD 1.850, nr 1.947, Nota Bene - NOVEMBER 2007

- USD 2.150, nr 1.837, www.collectrussia.com - NOVEMBER 2007

- USD 1.950, nr 1.437, Nota Bene - JANUARY 2008

- USD 2.000 (excl. 15% auction premium), nr 1,246, Dmitry Markov auction - JANUARY 2008

screwback

- USD 1.680, nr 644, Nota Bene - NOVEMBER 2006

- EUR 1.630 (roughly 2.150 USD), nr 585, Albert GMIC - MAY 2007

- USD 2.650, nr 644 (again!), Nota Bene - OCTOBER 2007 (boxed)

- USD 2.900, nr 640, www.collectrussia.com - NOVEMBER 2007

- USD 2.500, nr 777, somewhere in Russia - DECEMBER 2007

- USD 3.250 (excl. 15% auction premium), nr 427, Dmitry Markov auction - JANUARY 2008

CURRENTLY FOR SALE

pinback

- USD 2.450, nr 1.764, <a href="http://auction-su.com/-,itemname,160966,id,auctiondetails" target="_blank">http://auction-su.com/-,itemname,160966,id,auctiondetails</a>

- USD 2.750, nr 1.635, www.collectrussia.com

screwback

- USD 3.500, nr 227, Coinsell (on eBay)

[new world]

Sukhe Bator pin-back SN 902 sold on eBay for $1925.

William

[Ed_Haynes]

Sukhe Bator pin-back SN 902 sold on eBay for $1925.

William

Interesting. At 902 it is really low for a pinback, but not the recorded low (813). Assume it was an undocumnetd single?

Price?

[new world]

Interesting. At 902 it is really low for a pinback, but not the recorded low (813). Assume it was an undocumnetd single?

Price?

$1925

No doc

[Ed_Haynes]

$1925

No doc

Yes, the price, for my money, was insane. QUITE.

But, ECON 101, it is worth just what some damn fool will pay for it on any given date. While e$cam may be a bad guide, . . . .

Glad I have the SBs I do. They won't see many newly visiting cousins, I'm content to have to say. They can just deal with that fact.

Now . . . for reasearch . . . .

[new world]

What's even more insane - common Lenin selling for over $2000.

At least Sukhe Bator was issued in limited numbers compared to Lenin.

W

[fjcp]

What's even more insane - common Lenin selling for over $2000.

At least Sukhe Bator was issued in limited numbers compared to Lenin.

W

This item was also damaged... Part of the red banner was missing . Nothing too bad though....

I was expecting 2000-2250 so this was "reasonable" I guess...

JC

[fjcp]

Alexei just listed pinback #860 for $2750.....

I just checked this thread for any mention of this SB, and a year ago (feb13) this very SB was for sale by Eugene at $1950.

Even at this price I can't help but think that they are worth it.

JC

Edited February 19, 2008 by fjcp

[Bob]

RECENTLY SOLD

pinback

- USD 1.870, nr 1.918, Nota Bene - JANUARY 2007

- USD 1.880, nr 1.785, Nota Bene - JANUARY 2007 (boxed)

- USD 1.950, nr 860, www.russianglory.com - MARCH 2007

- EURO 1.600 (roughly 2.100 USD), nr 1.183, www.huesken.com - MARCH 2007

- EURO 1.650 (roughly 2.200 USD), nr 1.514, www.huesken.com - JUNE 2007

- EURO 1.300 (roughly 1.700 USD), nr 1.246, private seller - SEPTEMBER 2007

- EURO 1.600 (roughly 2.200 USD - before fees!), nr 1.514, Andreas Thies October auction - OCTOBER 2007

- USD 1.850, nr 1.947, Nota Bene - NOVEMBER 2007

- USD 2.150, nr 1.837, www.collectrussia.com - NOVEMBER 2007

- USD 1.950, nr 1.437, Nota Bene - JANUARY 2008

- USD 2.000 (excl. 15% auction premium), nr 1,246, Dmitry Markov auction - JANUARY 2008

- USD 1.925, nr 902, eBay - FEBRUARY 2008

screwback

- USD 1.680, nr 644, Nota Bene - NOVEMBER 2006

- EUR 1.630 (roughly 2.150 USD), nr 585, Albert GMIC - MAY 2007

- USD 2.650, nr 644 (again!), Nota Bene - OCTOBER 2007 (boxed)

- USD 2.900, nr 640, www.collectrussia.com - NOVEMBER 2007

- USD 2.500, nr 777, somewhere in Russia - DECEMBER 2007

- USD 3.250 (excl. 15% auction premium), nr 427, Dmitry Markov auction - JANUARY 2008

CURRENTLY FOR SALE

pinback

- USD 2.450, nr 1.764, <a href="http://auction-su.com/-,itemname,160966,id,auctiondetails" target="_blank">http://auction-su.com/-,itemname,160966,id,auctiondetails</a>

- USD 2.750, nr 1.635, www.collectrussia.com

- USD 2.750, nr 860, Nota Bene

screwback

- USD 3.500, nr 227, Coinsell (on eBay)

Edited February 22, 2008 by Bob

[new world]

That's pin-back, right?

"screwback

- USD 2.750, nr 860, Nota Bene"

William

[Bob]

Yep - corrected the error already:)

2.750 is quite a sum for a pinback... regardless of the rarity / beauty... and if Alexei is asking it, it must be a clear sign that prices are not just "inflated" by certain specific dealer(s) anymore.

Compare with 3.500 for a screwback... 750 is a lot to pay for a screw... then again, if/when research becomes available...

[Bob]

Somebody in China thought, let's raise price again... and some day soon somebody will fork up the $$$ - supply and demand at work

RECENTLY SOLD

pinback

- USD 1.870, nr 1.918, Nota Bene - JANUARY 2007

- USD 1.880, nr 1.785, Nota Bene - JANUARY 2007 (boxed)

- USD 1.950, nr 860, www.russianglory.com - MARCH 2007

- EURO 1.600 (roughly 2.100 USD), nr 1.183, www.huesken.com - MARCH 2007

- EURO 1.650 (roughly 2.200 USD), nr 1.514, www.huesken.com - JUNE 2007

- EURO 1.300 (roughly 1.700 USD), nr 1.246, private seller - SEPTEMBER 2007

- EURO 1.600 (roughly 2.200 USD - before fees!), nr 1.514, Andreas Thies October auction - OCTOBER 2007

- USD 1.850, nr 1.947, Nota Bene - NOVEMBER 2007

- USD 2.150, nr 1.837, www.collectrussia.com - NOVEMBER 2007

- USD 1.950, nr 1.437, Nota Bene - JANUARY 2008

- USD 2.000 (excl. 15% auction premium), nr 1,246, Dmitry Markov auction - JANUARY 2008

- USD 1.925, nr 902, eBay - FEBRUARY 2008

screwback

- USD 1.680, nr 644, Nota Bene - NOVEMBER 2006

- EUR 1.630 (roughly 2.150 USD), nr 585, Albert GMIC - MAY 2007

- USD 2.650, nr 644 (again!), Nota Bene - OCTOBER 2007 (boxed)

- USD 2.900, nr 640, www.collectrussia.com - NOVEMBER 2007

- USD 2.500, nr 777, somewhere in Russia - DECEMBER 2007

- USD 3.250 (excl. 15% auction premium), nr 427, Dmitry Markov auction - JANUARY 2008

CURRENTLY FOR SALE

pinback

- USD 2.450, nr 1.764, <a href="http://auction-su.com/-,itemname,160966,id,auctiondetails" target="_blank">http://auction-su.com/-,itemname,160966,id,auctiondetails</a>

- USD 2.750, nr 1.635, www.collectrussia.com

- USD 2.750, nr 860, Nota Bene

screwback

- USD 3.800, nr 227, Coinsell (on eBay)

[new world]

...

then again, if/when research becomes available...

Bob,

You seem to be putting too high expectations on research.

Don't be surprised if most of the citations turn out to be for excelling in hearding animals or for long service. I don't see how such sitations could add anything to the value of the award.

William

[Vatjan]

I, for one, would be very happy with an excellent herder SB, but I'm afraid 90%+ of the orders will be long service awards

Jan

[Ed_Haynes]

I would agree with Jan. A Sukhbaatar for herding achievements seems to me to be much more desirable than a long service military award. Maybe is is just a pro-military myopia that distorts the reality of Mongolian society and its awards? Obviously, those Sukhbaatars (implicitly) paired with either of the hero stars will seem best. Still, any Sukhbaatar is better than none at all.

Nevertheless, the ability to put a name and date and rough conditions of award onto these medals seems to be to be a significant research advance on the current "one-of-each" stamp-collecting approach of some collectors. Full Soviet- or British-style research may or may not be available soon, but it strikes me that a bit of history is much better than none at all.

And research progress is moving along. I expect to know more first-hand this summer. Real-world issues have slowed prpogress, but most of us do have lives. Also the change of government in Ulanbaatar has meant that some linkages have had to be reinvented.

[fjcp]

Considering the importance of herding in mongolia, I would be very happy if mine were for something like that.

Military service is great too, but like Ed I feel that civilian awards are often under-appreciated.

They should be seen in the context of the country/society in question.

JC

[new world]

All-right, may be hearder example wasn't the best one.

All I am saying, if judged by opinions in Research section for Soviet awards, majority of collectors value combat-earned citations. Labor and military long service citations do not get as much respect.

BTW, do we know if research for labor-related awards will be available?

William

[Ed_Haynes]

As research will be based on records held in the president's office, it will be all awards. Well, "all awards" in the dimension of whether they were civilian or military awards, but it is unclear just now which of the numbered awards will be covered. It seems we'll have information on all the orders (even motherhood?) and the top medals, but whether things like the virgin lands or "We Won" medal will be included is unclear at present. It may depend on whose office was the issuing authority and how many doors can be opened in the other ministries (now under new management).

Finally, something like the "Polar Star" may become clear?