Vatjan Posted December 20, 2005 Posted December 20, 2005 (edited) ORDER OF THE RED COMBAT BANNERT1: Screwback - 3 rivets - Serial number under the screwpostT2V1: 1970's Pinback - 3 rivets - serial number 12 o'clockT2V1: 1970's Pinback - 2 rivets - serial number 5 o'clockPIC: T1 Edited December 20, 2005 by vatjan
Vatjan Posted December 20, 2005 Author Posted December 20, 2005 T2V1: 1970's Pinback - 3 rivets - serial number 12 o'clock
Vatjan Posted December 20, 2005 Author Posted December 20, 2005 T2V1: 1970's Pinback - 2 rivets - serial number 5 o'clock
Ed_Haynes Posted December 26, 2005 Posted December 26, 2005 Order of Combat Red Banner1st awardType 1 (Screwback; 3 rivets; SN just below screwpost)Low = 98 High = 2640Type 2.1 (Pinback 3 rivets; SN at 12 o'clock)Low = 3160 High = 4449Type 2.2 (Pinback 2 rivets; SN at 5 o'clock)Low = 4685 High = 53802nd award (Screwback; 3 rivets; SN just below screwpost)Low = 12 High = 3983rd award (Screwback; 3 rivets; SN just below screwpost)No SN data4th award (Screwback; 3 rivets; SN just below screwpost)No SN dataSources:Eric and Janhttp://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=3249&st=0http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=3249&st=13
Vatjan Posted January 18, 2006 Author Posted January 18, 2006 That's a very nice collection you have there, congratulations. What are the serial numbers?Jan
GlennC Posted January 19, 2006 Posted January 19, 2006 That's a very nice collection you have there, congratulations. What are the serial numbers?JanI have in my collection:T1: Screwback - 3 rivets # 50, 704, 1871, 1876, 1974, 22442nd award # 12, 98, 224, 2483rd award # 106, 110, 1684th award # 86
Bob Posted January 19, 2006 Posted January 19, 2006 I have in my collection:T1: Screwback - 3 rivets # 50, 704, 1871, 1876, 1974, 22442nd award # 12, 98, 224, 2483rd award # 106, 110, 1684th award # 86Bold question: where did you buy these?
GlennC Posted January 19, 2006 Posted January 19, 2006 Bold question: where did you buy these? I am buying orders directly from Mongolia.
Paul R Posted January 19, 2006 Posted January 19, 2006 beautiful awards. I bet that these beauties are expenisive as heck!An question... Did mongolia have guards units, where the members wore guards badges simular to that of the Soviets?RegardsPaul
Ed_Haynes Posted January 19, 2006 Posted January 19, 2006 (edited) beautiful awards. I bet that these beauties are expenisive as heck!An question... Did mongolia have guards units, where the members wore guards badges simular to that of the Soviets?RegardsPaulWhile I'm not sure this answers your question, Paul, no such badges are shown in Battushig's fine book.Ed Edited January 19, 2006 by Ed_Haynes
Ed_Haynes Posted February 1, 2006 Posted February 1, 2006 Just as a link to Yuri Yashnev's site on ОРДЕН БОЕВОГО КРАСНОГО ЗНАМЕНИ:http://www.netdialogue.com/yy/Asia/Mongoli...atRedBanner.htm
Ed_Haynes Posted February 3, 2006 Posted February 3, 2006 (edited) Am I losing my sanity??(OK, don't answer THAT.)Evereything we know, everything I have read, tells us that these things were issued with no number, "2", "3", and "4". Awards through "4". Fair enough.BUT: In evidence, the famous Choibalsan photo (Battushig p. 20). Unless I cannot count (as I tell my students, there are three kinds of historians, those who can count and those who can't), I count five (5!) OCRBs. Now, I do not see any numbers on any of them. We all know Choibalsan was, well, er, "special", but . . . ??? Edited February 3, 2006 by Ed_Haynes
Ed_Haynes Posted February 3, 2006 Posted February 3, 2006 (edited) To add more mud to the Mongol waters, an earlier snap of a younger and more cheerful Choibalsan (Battushig p. 28) with his 5 (!) ORBMVs (though the picture is pretty clear and it does not seem as if any of them have numbers). Edited February 3, 2006 by Ed_Haynes
Guest Rick Research Posted February 3, 2006 Posted February 3, 2006 Welllll, considering there was NO "combat" in Mongolia from the month of August 1939 until August 1945 and none at all thereafter (? 1960s border incidents with the Chinese?) what were ANY of these for? That's less than two months in the last 60 years of armed "combat," period.So while Gloriously Inflated, the NAME of this Order cannot actually have much real bearing on what it was ACTUALLY awarded for. The Military Merit Order seems to have been for 15 years of long service-- were these ...Banners given for 20 (and 30, and...)?And ought with in the interests of Accurate Translation to call them Order of MILITARY (as opposed to labor) Red Banner rather than the entirely false... colors... 99.99% of them are flying under?
Stogieman Posted February 3, 2006 Posted February 3, 2006 Good question and one that keeps cropping up. So many military/combat orders, medals........... but no fighting??Maybe they fought in Korea under another flag??
GlennC Posted February 4, 2006 Posted February 4, 2006 Am I losing my sanity??(OK, don't answer THAT.)Evereything we know, everything I have read, tells us that these things were issued with no number, "2", "3", and "4". Awards through "4". Fair enough.BUT: In evidence, the famous Choibalsan photo (Battushig p. 20). Unless I cannot count (as I tell my students, there are three kinds of historians, those who can count and those who can't), I count five (5!) OCRBs. Now, I do not see any numbers on any of them. We all know Choibalsan was, well, er, "special", but . . . ???What a nice belt
Ed_Haynes Posted February 4, 2006 Posted February 4, 2006 Rick ® has raised a couple of questions. Let me see what answers I can provide.Welllll, considering there was NO "combat" in Mongolia from the month of August 1939 until August 1945 and none at all thereafter (? 1960s border incidents with the Chinese?) what were ANY of these for? That's less than two months in the last 60 years of armed "combat," period.Well, not strictly true. Based on Battushig's coverage of military history, what is in the often unreliable US "country handbook", and on those few other sources on Mongolian history that I have at hand:liberation war - 1921-22suppression of insurgents - 1931-37war against Japan - 1937-45clashes with China - 1947-48I know there is an ongoing quibble over the English word "combat". Until I know what the real (Mongolian) name of the various awards says, I shall pass up getting involved in this. The Military Merit Order seems to have been for 15 years of long service-- were these ...Banners given for 20 (and 30, and...)?The awards as given for long service 1947-59 (only) are very complex and confusing. As Battushig liosts these (p. 26, I can extract:Military, Interior, and Border Troops:10 years - Honorary Medal of Combat15 years - Order of the Polar Star20 years - Order of Combat Valor25 years - Order of the Red Banner of Combat Valor30 years - Order of SukhbaatarTeachers:10 years - Honorary Medal of Labor15 years - Order of the Polar Star20 years - Order of the Red Banner of Labor Valor30 years - Order of SukhbaatarBattushig also lists an interesting, complex, and quite obviously confused third category, that of medical personnel. There were different standards depending whether on where you served in the city of Ulanbaatar, in the wilds of the Gobi desert, or elsewhere in the rural regions of the country. While I think Battushig has these confused (and I am asking him for clarification), he shows:Ulanbaatar:10 years - Order of the Polar Star20 years - Order of the Red Banner of Labor Valor25 years - Order of SukhbaatarOther non-Gobi rural:5 years - Order of the Polar Star15 years - Order of the Red Banner of Labor Valor15 (?!) years - Order of SukhbaatarGobi desert:3 years - Order of the Polar Star10 years - Order of the Red Banner of Labor Valor10 (?!) years - Order of SukhbaatarYes, something seems confused here . . . ?This "senior awards for long service" nonsense (learned from the Soviets) was stopped in 1959.
Guest Rick Research Posted February 4, 2006 Posted February 4, 2006 Yes, but they weren't handing out several thousand Orders into the 1990s for... before WW2.Unlike the Soviets, I don't think they ever DID stop handing out Orders for mere long service... because there are no Mongolian long service medals...and there is absolutely nothing "combat" to justify the steady, continuous, non-ending progression of said awards right up to the change in government structure, otherwise.Dr. Battushig also erred about military long service awards:evidence for which is my one and only Orders Book (shown in the thread on same) swith a MMM and a MMO 5 years later. So MMM for 10, and the MMO for 15 based on recipient's initial rank. Since my Orders Book shows an officer in uniform, we can at least tell what he was when the first award was made.Still interesting early learning days in this field, which keeps pulling me back here. (But no, I think I am immune to the allure of Excellent Herdsmen, thanks all the same )
Vatjan Posted February 4, 2006 Author Posted February 4, 2006 One might add, still according to Dr Battushig, that from 1959 onward for army and police staff following standards were set:10 years of distinguished service Combat Service medal15 years of distinguished service Combat Service orderJan
Ed_Haynes Posted February 4, 2006 Posted February 4, 2006 One might add, still according to Dr Battushig, that from 1959 onward for army and police staff following standards were set:10 years of distinguished service Combat Service medal15 years of distinguished service Combat Service orderJanThanks, Jan, for the clarification.
Dolf Posted February 7, 2006 Posted February 7, 2006 (edited) While I'm not sure this answers your question, Paul, no such badges are shown in Battushig's fine book.EdEd,Mongolian Border Guards Badges?There are 2 pages full of them in Dr. Battusig's book (pages 88 and 89) ! I guess we do have the same book! I have myself a small collection of these Border Guards Badges ( 19 in all, counting different types and variations ) as it is a subject I like. Also like the State Security ones theme, Police, Army and Agriculture, and do have a decent collection on all these themes.Dolf Edited February 7, 2006 by Dolf
Ed_Haynes Posted February 7, 2006 Posted February 7, 2006 Ed,Mongolian Border Guards Badges?There are 2 pages full of them in Dr. Battusig's book (pages 88 and 89) ! I guess we do have the same book!I have myself a small collection of these Border Guards Badges ( 19 in all, counting different types and variations ) as it is a subject I like. Also like the State Security ones theme, Police, Army and Agriculture, and do have a decent collection on all these themes.DolfWell, no, Dolf. The question was about GUARDS (military) badges (similar to the Soviet, Cuban, etc. guards badges discussed by Paul on orther threads here), not BORDER Guards. Border guards we all know.
Dolf Posted February 8, 2006 Posted February 8, 2006 Well, no, Dolf. The question was about GUARDS (military) badges (similar to the Soviet, Cuban, etc. guards badges discussed by Paul on orther threads here), not BORDER Guards. Border guards we all know.Ed,Oh, I'm deeply sorry, I guess I misunderstood the question! Anyway, I suppose only the Red Army had Guards units, so most probably they are the only ones who have such Badges I guess.Well, I guess we can find similar military units on other countries (guards were elite units in the Red Army, right?) but I don't know and never heard about similar units in Mongolian Army.Cheers,Dolf
Ed_Haynes Posted February 8, 2006 Posted February 8, 2006 No problem, Dolf, just glad (realy glad) to see you over here!!Help us disentangle all the mysteries of Mongol awards, please. We know so little. It is fun! (I shall be asking the fabled Dr. B about this this summer.)
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