EK 1914 Slime and the EK...

[Chris Boonzaier]

Google knows a lot about him... apparently he was (at least in his mind) an expert on genetics and hereditary weaknesses... His clinic was for children and he studied how sterilization could improve the race...

Of course, he was a party member and SS man.

On one google hit was a paragraph about how he was keen to follow 15 young people who he had somehow "cured" and put back into normal life, they were now guaranteed not to be a detriment to the state and would not dirty the gene pool...

I assume his work was one of the keystones of the German forced sterilization program.

[Chris Boonzaier]

Unfortunately he seems to have been taken by the Russians in 1945.... many of the articals have a "?" behind his date of death....

[Christian J]

Very edgy read on the last fellow. I find eugenics part highly interesting.

Edited March 7, 2010 by RaZpuTiN

[Obergefreiter]

Your points about vets is dead on, Chris. Like any other group of people, some are the salt of the earth and others you wouldn't let in your house or trust them to babysit your kids.

Edited March 31, 2010 by Obergefreiter

[dond]

An interesting thread Chris. Like anything else in life, the truth isn't always what it seems. I've lived and worked with vets my whole life, having been in the Army since I was 17. I've met MoH winners,Silver Star holders etc.... and you just never know what the real story is until you hear it. Another truth is, no matter what your awards, you are only as good as your last OP/contribution.

Of all the people I met, only two remain etched in my memory. The first was a friend of mine's dad. I saw him one day mowing his lawn with his shirt off. He had a 2' long, 3" wide filet missing across his back. I asked him what happened. He told me a Chinese officer had taken a swipe at him with a sword in Korea. He also had to pucker marks in the middle of his abdomen from being bayonetted to ensure he was dead after his unit was over run. Some how he survived and made it back to American lines. His highest award was the Purple Heart.

The other guy was a Staff Sergeant who served in Vietnam. Had a million war stories. One night we were detailed for aggressor duties to go out and harrass trainees in their bivouac area during an FTX. It was about 6 of us with him in charge. We waited until dark and then drove out to the training area. As soon as we got off the truck I hear a voice behind me saying I should lead the way thru the woods to the location of the bivouac. As I lead off this guy is holding on to my web straps and stumbling around, tripping and falling. He keeps pulling me down every time he falls. I ask him what gives and he tells me he can't see ###### at night. Seems he was a baggage handler at Da Nang his whole three tours in Vietnam.

[Ulsterman]

Bloody heck! How did I miss this thread?

-wow-food for thought there, but i think i may have a 'winner".

I note that in Einsatzkommando murders the KVKx was awarded-but specifically NOT the EK.

However...in some case "partisans"....let me go see what I have....

[Chris Boonzaier]

It is not to say that one cannot be brave and slime at the same time.

I have an EK1 to a U-Boot man, he was on the U-55... the boat most known for war crimes...

In one instance they collected all the survivors onto the front of the u-boot, destroyed all the life rafts... then dived, leaving all the survivors to drown.

May have been a brave man... but slime all the same....

[Christian J]

It is not to say that one cannot be brave and slime at the same time.

I have an EK1 to a U-Boot man, he was on the U-55... the boat most known for war crimes...

In one instance they collected all the survivors onto the front of the u-boot, destroyed all the life rafts... then dived, leaving all the survivors to drown.

May have been a brave man... but slime all the same....

The U-55 from WWI or WWII? I see that latter one sank some Swedish neutral vessels. This awakes bad blood, as my grandfather were serving on these kinds of boats outside and inside the blockade, suffered alot from the peril and had friends that were lost.

[Chris Boonzaier]

Hi,

the WW1 one under Werner...

As commander of U-55, after sinking the armed 5,597 ton steamer "Torrington" on 8 April 1917, he submerged with 34 survivors on deck, taking only the ship's master POW back to Germany--to bear postwar witness against him.

Werner then did the same thing with crew members of the torpedoed armed 3,066 ton steamer "Toro" on 12 April 1917, murdering 14 crewmembers in the same way, while carrying the Master and ship's gunner back to Germany as prisoners-- and witnesses.

Werner also torpedoed the fully lit and legally identified (but luckily, apparently empty of any but the crew) hospital ship "Rewa" on 4 January 1918, sinking it with a loss of only 4 dead. In what had become an evil pattern of homicidal and deliberately criminal behavior, AGAIN torpedoed a fully lit hospital ship, the "Guilford Castle" on 10 March 1918-- which did not sink only because one torpedo was a dud and the other he fired missed.

[VtwinVince]

Chris, these sorts of incidents were rife on both sides, in both conflicts.

[Chris Boonzaier]

Chris, these sorts of incidents were rife on both sides, in both conflicts.

Hi,

Maybe in WW2, but for WW1 Werner and his boat were the exception.

So much so that he was unique in being the only U-Boot commander to be tried and sentenced for war crimes...

Not only that, he knowingly let the allies suspect another U-Boot captain of this...

For WW1 this was the only known case, even for WW2 it was not comman. A couple of German commanders and some US commanders in the pacific.. and I seem to remember 1 Brit commander accused of same...

[Hugh]

It is not to say that one cannot be brave and slime at the same time.

I have an EK1 to a U-Boot man, he was on the U-55... the boat most known for war crimes...

In one instance they collected all the survivors onto the front of the u-boot, destroyed all the life rafts... then dived, leaving all the survivors to drown.

May have been a brave man... but slime all the same....

You may want to keep in mind that, unless your man was at some level of authority, he probably had little or no say over what the commander / officers did. As I'm sure you know, a U-boat was not a consensus-driven group, and this one probably less than most.

Best,

Hugh

Edited April 1, 2010 by Hugh

[Chris Boonzaier]

You may want to keep in mind that, unless your man was at some level of authority, he probably had little or no say over what the commander / officers did. As I'm sure you know, a U-boat was not a consensus-driven group, and this one probably less than most.

Best,

Hugh

Indeed... if ever I know of anyone going down to Freiburg archives I wouls ask them to pull his files from the Werner Trial... that way I would know his position...

[Hugh]

Indeed... if ever I know of anyone going down to Freiburg archives I wouls ask them to pull his files from the Werner Trial... that way I would know his position...

Do you know his rank?

H

[Chris Boonzaier]

Hi,

Have to check when i get home--- i think he was a "U" Mate.... From what I remember it was not an engine room or Torpedo Maat... so very possibly an on deck man.

Best

Chris

[Eric K.]

Can't believe I've missed this thread. I love how the first guy in the thread

never saw combat yet has an EK etc... I'm sure he could easily make up a few war stories

Same goes for the U.S. Army and bronze stars, you would be shocked to find out who gets those!!!

I would say 75-80% are people who never seen combat at all.

Oh by the way, would a Bosnia vet be considered an Vet A-hole? hehehehe

Eric

Edited April 4, 2010 by Eric K.

[Chris Boonzaier]

Just found this..... "

The paper examines the history of constitutional therapy in Weimar and Nazi Germany. Focusing on Walter Jaensch’s “Institute for Constitutional Therapy” in Berlin, it shows how a medical scientist successfully negotiated the changing social and political landscape of two very different political regimes. The focus will be on Jaensch's visual diagnostic system which promised to diagnose children and youths with "developmental inhibitions" based on images of their capillaries. The structure of children’s capillaries, Jaensch claimed, could be determined through the microscopic examination of their skin. The resulting capillary image (Kapillarbild) could then be read like a text which revealed children’s mental age. Jaensch successfully positioned himself as a researcher on the verge of developing new diagnostics and therapies for feebleminded people, who threatened to become an intolerable burden on the German state. During the Nazi period he cast himself as a racial hygienist by convincing influential medical leaders that his ideas were a valuable complement to the negative eugenics of Nazi racial policies. “Constitutional therapy,” he claimed, could turn genetically healthy people with “inhibited mental development” into fully productive citizens and therefore make a valuable contribution to Nazi bio-politics. "

[VtwinVince]

These sort of racial theories were rife in most countries at that time, not just Germany.

[Chris Boonzaier]

14 minutes ago, VtwinVince said:

These sort of racial theories were rife in most countries at that time, not just Germany.

Agreed... but not everyone used it as a grouns for murder.

[2dresq]

Like others, I am surprised how long this topic existed before I checked it out.  Very interesting things.  I feel like many of the awards issued during WW1 were still awarded with a huge dose of birth elitism.  Where a common enlisted person could perform a truly heroic act and receive maybe a citation or a different class award vs a field or administrative officer (nobleman) who didn't do much of anything could be issued a high award.

With regards to war crimes and actions deserving of those trials:  It is troubling to think of how people justify their actions and how those actions get recognized.  There were many honorable people but there are also a trove of people who were despicable.  Through the passage of time, history (if properly recorded and available) can vindicate or accuse those actions of the individuals.   Submarines are an offensive weapon.  Unable to take many if any prisoners.  While the destruction of survival gear or killing in cold blood is unconscionable to survivors, I can understand the reluctance for an enemy to potentially expose their boat/crew to further attacks.  The Laconia incident was a perfect example of that very thing and brought war crimes investigations.  Wonder if the Germans would have won, would the pilots/crew of the B-24's been brought forth on war crimes?

 

Some actions (airborne raids, Covert behind enemy lines operations) are by definition not able to accept prisoners. The very act of having prisoners bogs down and hinders the objectives.  How many people were gunned down to press forward to achieve an objective?    Philosophical debates. 

My favorite commanders to research on the German side:  Felix Graf von Luckner  (S.M.S. Seeadler) and Karl von Müller (S.M.S. EMDEN) 

Just my two cents.  

Best Regards,

Justin

[Bayern]

On 03/03/2010 at 07:28, Chris Boonzaier said:

The whole war with an Infantry regiment, EK1 and 2...

Whats the problem ? He was a Medical Officer .It was not uncommon that one Regimental or Bataillon Doctor remains all the War into the same unit .Regimental and Bataillon doctors normally served in Front line Lazaretten .

[Bayern]

Chris ,I understand your point of view about the Nazi Kulturbearer Sic . but regarding the War Veterans as a whole i want to said that the mixture of Heros and Bastards was very current among War Veterans of every country and in all the Wars . I want to say too that in a War with millions of men movilized for the real fight or for reaguard duties all previous dispositions regulating the concession of awards were desbordated and they were adequated amplying whitin the frame existent the scope of the concession .