Medal Bar w/ Swedish awards.

[Great Dane]

Hi guys,

If it can help your search for the recipient, then note that in "The Olympic Games of Stockholm 1912 - Official Report" (page 164 in the report. page 242 in the PDF file), there is a description of who got this medal (no names though):

The Gustaf V. Olympic Medal

.

H. M. King Gustaf V ordered a medal to be struck in memory of the Olympic Games of Stockholm, 1912, to be worn on the left breast, like the insignia of the Swedish Orders of Knighthood. H. M. the King has been graciously pleased to present this medal to the members of the Swedish and foreign Royal families; to the members of the International and the Swedish Olympic Committee; to the official representatives of the various nations; to the members of the special committees; to the leading officials, and to the Swedish prize-winners at the Games.

/Michael

[Claudius]

Claudius , I have about 400 names of Germans with Knight Wasa Order , so If you have a list of Germans with the Olympic medal I can check if

he turns up in my list.

Christer

That will be awesome

I have a list of 1912 German functionaries, judges, team leaders, Olympic committee members with 53 names on it! There is likely to be move than one match, but this cross-checking will reduce the candidates. I will post them when the medal bar arrives.

[ixhs]

I think you won`t find him. We know the bar a long time....

Some of my friends tried it a few years ago.

[Claudius]

...still waiting on its arrival.

[Claudius]

The medal bar is in and I will be posting photos soon.

[Claudius]

Here it is. It is a great little bar. I hope you enjoy it.

I almost forgot -from right to left;

EK2

Braunschweig War Service Cross

HK

Sweden: Vasa Order -Knights class

Sweden: Gustaf V Medal for the 1912 Stockholm Olympics

Romania: Order of Cultural Merit for Sports and Scouting

Edited May 6, 2014 by Claudius

[christerd]

Gentlemen , I think we have an answer

I have gone through a lot of data about Wasa Orders to Germans and comparing to Claudius list for 1912 German functionaries and found

exactly one (1 ) matching name.

Not only has he to be a member of the German functionary team in Stockholm 1912 , he also had to be young enough to go to war in 1914,

survive and get the EHK in 1934/35.

Dr Paul Emmanuel Karl Martin RWO 1912

If we only had the Braunschweig Honor Cross records , I tried to find anything at Ancestry but it seems that he havent been wounded.

The Fracken Spange fits well into his profession as a Dr.

I been searching on Ancestry for him and maybe found a clue ??

a Dr Paul Martin was living in Kantstrasse 147 , Berlin in 1919-1928 ( in 1928 he is listed as Regierungsrat) after that I lost track of him

A successfull cooperation between US and Sweden

Christer

[turtle]

Very interesting research and a really beautiful bar!!

[Claudius]

This is a terrific outcome to Christer’s hard work.

There would have been no identifying this medal bar without Christer’s list and his perseverance in checking each possible combination. Antti Ruokonen informed me of the situation with the Romanian award lists and it was clear that there would be no Order of Culture list to cross-check.

Christer, my words of thanks fall short of expressing my gratitude to your efforts. Thank you for your work in giving back a name to medal bar that had lost its owner.

I would really like to learn about Dr. Paul Emmanuel Karl Martin, WWI and post war service if there is anyone who has additional information.

[JohanH]

On 02/06/2014 at 16:28, Claudius said:

This is a terrific outcome to Christer’s hard work.

 

There would have been no identifying this medal bar without Christer’s list and his perseverance in checking each possible combination. Antti Ruokonen informed me of the situation with the Romanian award lists and it was clear that there would be no Order of Culture list to cross-check.

 

Christer, my words of thanks fall short of expressing my gratitude to your efforts. Thank you for your work in giving back a name to medal bar that had lost its owner.

 

I would really like to learn about Dr. Paul Emmanuel Karl Martin, WWI and post war service if there is anyone who has additional information.

Hello!

 

Old thread I know.

 

Is the Order of Vasa gold/gilded or silver?

On the pictures it looks like silver which would mean that it's a 2nd class and Dr. Martin isn't the original owner. 

 

Since Dr. Martin received his Vasa order in 1912 it should be made of 18k gold. If I remember correctly they year they changed to gilded bronze to foreigners was in 1924. 

 

Only 196 germans received the Order of Vasa 2nd class knight.

[Claudius]

22 hours ago, JohanH said:

Hello!

 

Old thread I know.

 

Is the Order of Vasa gold/gilded or silver?

On the pictures it looks like silver which would mean that it's a 2nd class and Dr. Martin isn't the original owner. 

 

Since Dr. Martin received his Vasa order in 1912 it should be made of 18k gold. If I remember correctly they year they changed to gilded bronze to foreigners was in 1924. 

 

Only 196 germans received the Order of Vasa 2nd class knight.

Hello JohanH;

 

I looked at the medal bar again very closely under a magnifying glass.  It is not gold and it does not look like it was gilded and the gold flaked off over the years.  It appears silver (with the gold lettering and motif in the center).  

 

Your knowledge on the Swedish regulations casts understandable doubt as to the attributed owner (Dr. Martin). 

 

But to be clear, from your information, Dr. Martin received the 1st class knight Vasa Order?  And in 1912 or even in 1924 the 1st class would be in Gold/Gold-gilt.  The Vasa Order in this medal bar is clearly a Silver (2nd class).  If Dr. Martin is recorded as receiving the 1st class, could there be any other explanation as to why he would mount the 2nd class his medal bar?  Did he even earn a 2nd class and then later earn the 1st class?

 

Or is Dr. Martin clearly not the owner of this medal bar and we need to look again at the list of 196 Germans that received the 2nd class Vasa Order and cross-reference it with the list of German functionaries at the 1912 Olympics? 

[JohanH]

My opinion is that I don't believe the bar belonged to Dr. Martin. 

 

Yes, Dr. Martin received the Knight 1st class of the Vasa order in 1912, on July 20th to be precise. He never got a 2nd class Vasa-order. 

I can't see any logical reason to mount a 2nd class silver order instead of the gold one he received.  

 

The 2nd class Knight cross is much rarer than the 1st class. A total of 1471 awards of 2nd class compared to many thousands of 1st class crosses. (I'm not done with the rolls of the Vasa order yet so the total number is still unknown.)

 

The Swedish government decided that from 1924 (or 1926, I don't remember) that all orders (Sword, North star and Vasa) awarded to foreigners would be made from gilded bronze/silver and not 18k gold. The decision was made to save money. 

 

If you have the list of German functionaries I can check it against my list of 2nd class crosses and hopefully we find something. 

[Claudius]

Thank you.  PM sent.

[JohanH]

There is only one person that fits in with your list and the Vasa order 2nd class list....

 

So depending on whether the Vasa order is a 1st or 2nd class it's either:
 

Dr. Martin

or

Carl Diem

 

I have tried to find a picture of Diem with his medals but no luck. 

 

But it appears that Diem fought during the first world war which would explain the IC and the Braunschweig Honor Cross. 
 

Diem enlisted in the German army and served in Belgium and France. He was wounded at St. Quentin, recovered, and fought at both Champagne and the Argonne.

[Claudius]

This is an incredible development!  Thank you JohanH for your research!  

59 minutes ago, JohanH said:

 

Carl Diem

 

I have tried to find a picture of Diem with his medals but no luck. 

 

I found mention of the Carl and Liselott Diem Archive that may have more photos and information.

[JohanH]

Just glad to be able to help!

It sure is a great medalbar you have!

 

I think you should try to contact the Carl and Liselett Diem Archive and ask them if they know of any photos that shows his medalbar or if they can confirm that he had the Romanian order (just to verify that it really is his medals). 

 

The Swedish Olympic commemorative medal of 1912 was according to several sources awarded around 650 times. So it's a bit unusual and not the most common medal. 

 

I have a great miniature chain on it's way (it's stuck in the Swedish customs atm) that has the olympic medal of 1912 on it. The chain have belonged to one of the Swedish pistol shooters that won a team gold medal and a individual silver medal during the 1912 Olympics. 

[Claudius]

13 hours ago, JohanH said:

 

I think you should try to contact the Carl and Liselett Diem Archive and ask them if they know of any photos that shows his medalbar or if they can confirm that he had the Romanian order (just to verify that it really is his medals). 

 

I am going to try and contact the Carl and Liselett Diem Archive.  They might be very helpful in this regard, and maybe they know his military career details as well (rank, unit, etc.)

[JohanH]

It seems like they have both his diaries and 5000 photos in their archive.

 

So they must have at least one photo that shows his awards.

 

Carl und Liselott Diem-Archiv - Deutsche Sporthochschule Köln (dshs-koeln.de)

 

If you find out anything, please keep us updated! I am curious about what you might find out. 

[1812 Overture]

On 05/06/2021 at 03:14, JohanH said:

It seems like they have both his diaries and 5000 photos in their archive.

 

So they must have at least one photo that shows his awards.

 

Carl und Liselott Diem-Archiv - Deutsche Sporthochschule Köln (dshs-koeln.de)

 

If you find out anything, please keep us updated! I am curious about what you might find out. 

[Claudius]

On 04/06/2021 at 14:14, JohanH said:

It seems like they have both his diaries and 5000 photos in their archive.

 

So they must have at least one photo that shows his awards.

 

Carl und Liselott Diem-Archiv - Deutsche Sporthochschule Köln (dshs-koeln.de)

 

If you find out anything, please keep us updated! I am curious about what you might find out. 

 

I intend to contact them.  I just hope they don't think I'm asking because I have a screwball agenda and looking to add to controversial ideas.

[Claudius]

Just a quick update;

 

The contact at the Carl und Liselott Diem -Archiv was most helpful.  He provided me with information that I hope to further explore, however the Archiv will be closed until July 25.  Stay tuned. 

[rujab]

Preussen/Schweden

1)Preussen Kronenorden 4 Klasse,Hersteller Wagner

2)Schweden Ritterkreuz 2 Klasse des Schwerter Ordens

3)Schweden Ritterkreuz 1 Klasse des Wasa Ordens in Gold.

[JohanH]

25 minutes ago, rujab said:

Preussen/Schweden

1)Preussen Kronenorden 4 Klasse,Hersteller Wagner

2)Schweden Ritterkreuz 2 Klasse des Schwerter Ordens

3)Schweden Ritterkreuz 1 Klasse des Wasa Ordens in Gold.

Is this medalbar in your collection?

[laurentius]

3 hours ago, JohanH said:

Is this medalbar in your collection?

It is, since I wasn't fast enough.... pity.

[JohanH]

I have also had my eyes on that medalbar but lack of funds stopped me from buying it. 

I like it even more since it's ID:able. Medalbars with a name attached is more interesting than nameless bars.