Lippe Detmold lippe-detmold war merit cross 1st class

[VtwinVince]

Great set, the Urkunde is very rare.

[Eric Stahlhut]

On 6/8/2012 at 16:41, Eric Stahlhut said:

 

 

thanks, vince

 

it's my impression that the version without the inscription is even harder to find. i haven't found one yet, but someday one will come my way.

 

cheers!

well, well, well. that day has finally come!

 here's one with a great deal of character---i really like it, as it screams, "been there" at me.

now, i realize that some experts say that these crosses without inscriptions on the arms were never issued or worn, (http://www.hausorden.de/militaer-auszeichn-KVK-steckkreuz.html), but you really can't argue with something like this. also, there do exist period fotos of this smaller version without inscription in wear. i've spent 45 minutes trying to find a specific example posted here on this forum years ago, but i haven't found it yet.

what a beauty in my eyes: 40mm vaulted, gilded bronze with a pocket watch casing used as a replacement for a screw disc!

the female threaded part which the pocket-watch disc screws into, which was indubitably period done, could have come from an ek1, however this exact type of assembly is also seen on daniel cole's example shown above---whoever did it merely trimmed the circular portion of metal into a cross before resoldering the part back onto the cross

 

[Solomon]

Hi Eric,

as you are quoting my website, I´m really curious to see photos people wearing this type of cross.
According to the rolls it was never forseen to issue such a cross (might be called 1st class of the war merit cross Lippe-Detmold).

It was not realized until 11th November 1918, when prince Leopold IV. had to resign.

For me personally these pin-crosses are samples, created in case a 1st class would have been issued.
I had the cross shown on my website personally in my hands and spent a lot of time to compare it with the normal war merit cross and the cross for heroic deeds. I agree that your cross is a pre-1945 piece.

So if you have a photo, documents etc please show us :-)

Regards
Roman

[ccj]

I'm not certain that I understand what's been stated. I'm confused...

[Eric Stahlhut]

hi roman, glad you saw this!

there was a photo  posted on this forum (i think between 2011-2013) where an officer was wearing the 40mm cross. it was obviously the smaller size, as it was next to another medal such as the ek1, wound badge, or perhaps a silesian eagle, etc. i cannot remember if the officer was 3rd reich, weimar, freikorps, or imperial, but i remember commenting that the cross was indeed the one sans inscription because of the size difference.

 i am still trying to find the thread, hopefully the image was not lost when this website was converted a few years ago....a lot of images were lost.

 

Edited May 13, 2016 by Eric Stahlhut

[Eric Stahlhut]

1 hour ago, ccj said:

I'm not certain that I understand what's been stated. I'm confused...

charles,

  according to the existing rolls and documentation that has been found so far, the crosses without the inscription on the arms--war MERIT cross-- were ONLY issued hanging off of a ribbon-- the smaller 40mm pinback versions without inscription on the cross arms were not formally awarded or issued. technically there was no "first class"

the larger 45mm crosses with the inscription--war HONOR cross-were issued and awarded, and candidates had to fulfill different criteria in order to win them.

here's another website with info in english for you

http://antique-photos.com/en/awardsdatabase/german-empire/lippe/601-war-merit-cross.html

 

 

Edited May 14, 2016 by Eric Stahlhut

[ccj]

Thanks Eric, that explains it where I understand.

 

 

[Solomon]

Perfect explanation by Eric...I have only one important remark:

Not only the rolls until 1918 are still existing in the arcives, but also the rolls after 1918. Lippe-Detmold awarded certain orders until 1933, partly even later.

And that's the reason, why for me it is 100 % sure, that these pinback crosses were never officially awarded.

By the way, the statutes of the war merit cross and for the cross for heroic deeds are printed on the back of each award document and were never changed.

There is only one exception, as the statues describe the crosses as gilden crosses, for which only Bronce should be used.

But in 1918 around 80 crosses were delivered in zinc...very rare crosses, officially awarded but not correct, if you follow strictly the statues.

I only know my own cross so far, if you find another one...keep it in any circumstances.

 

[ccj]

I've learned something new. I have always thought the pin back cross without “Für mütige Helden Tat” was just a private purchase variation of the War Onor Cross for Heroic Deeds.

 

[Deruelle]

Hello,

 

This morning I have received this new cross. I have found in my database that only two Saxon officers wore this cross.

Here is Oberst Konrad von Koppenfels

[ccj]

Looks like he's wearing a General's uniform

[Deruelle]

Yes Charles, he was Generalmajor (promoted 22 July 1918)

[Solomon]

Are you sure with the name von Koppenfels? I cannot find him in the award-lists...

Here is my latest purchase...quite famous name, he is Herrmann´s son...

[Chris Boonzaier]

"Wirklicher Geheimer Rat" ... is that astep up from "Möglicher Geheimer Rat" ? :-)

[Solomon]

Hehe, somehow yes...

By the way the document was signed by "Dr. Freiherr (Georg) von Eppstein", who was editior for the Ordens-Almanach in Berlin.
I have his ribbonbar in my collection :-)

[ccj]

Would you post images of ribbon bar?

[Solomon]

Here you are...

-IC 2nd class
-long service award
- medal for South West Africa
-Lippe-Detmold order for art and science 2nd class with oakleaves (Lippische Rose)
-Lippe-Detmold house order
-Lippe-Detmold Leopold-order

[ccj]

Nice, thanks

[ccj]

Is this issue or post war version?

[Deruelle]

Hi Charles,

It seems to be a nice one

Christophe

[Solomon]

I can confirm...it´s an official awarded cross, not a post-war cross....congrats.

And here are two more official awarded crossed from C.F. Zimmermann, Pforzheim and the ultra rare version in Silver gilden with the box (three times produced and awarded...).

 

[ccj]

Thank you 

[Eric Stahlhut]

solomon, you may want to take another, closer, look at the cross charles has shown. there are signs of the planchet having been cast. i hope to be mistaken but it certainly appears to be the case...

i liked the cross as a later private purchase piece until i noticed the above-mentioned red flag shown on the second and fifth pictures of the cross (the sides of the cross arms)

Edited May 10, 2020 by Eric Stahlhut

[VtwinVince]

I also have a pretty beat up cross without inscription, I'll dig it out.

[Solomon]

I guess you are refering to the marked irregularities...I´m not sure about a red flag to be honest.
Of course I checked my two crosses (both are not nameless, one came directly from the family) and one of the two
also doesn´t have polished edges between the cross-arms, but some irregularities on the surface.

The front of Charles´cross is absolut identical to the Zimmermann-crosses I know and I own.

To be 100 % sure, you two have it in your hands...