German Colonial Colonial Medal Clasp - Good or Bad?

[army historian]

Hello all this clasp came on a group of 4 medals (with good colonial Medal). My question is first I do not think this was a early period clasp. Second It does not look like the recent copies (fakes) which have diamond impressed backing. Is this possibly a 1920's or pre-1945 clasp? Thanks in advanced.

Edited June 20, 2012 by army historian

[piekenier]

Please also post a photo of the reverse

[army historian]

Here you go piekenier - not the best. The prongs have been repaired? The clasp is not ribbon width, it is 34mm. Thanks George

[piekenier]

Can you also give me the dimensions.It looks like a later clasp .

[army historian]

Hello Piekenier - the clasp is not ribbon width it is 7mm x 34mm. George

[piekenier]

I my opinion this bar is good

[army historian]

Thank you piekenier. So you think this is a 1920's-pre-WW2 replacement (jeweler's piece)? Here is the group it was on. George

[militaria0815]

George, a very nice medal bar. Do you know what the green cross is, I have never seen it before?

[saschaw]

Check here:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ritterorden_von_Avis

[piekenier]

Yes I think it is a 1920's bar .It is still an original as far as I am concerned .The background on the very old bars was more sandy.I will try to make a good photo

[piekenier]

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_08_2012/post-13922-0-89551900-1344035790.jpgBar old

[army historian]

Thanks Piekenier Here are some bars from my collection. George

[Leutwein]

Hello George,

that´s a difficult question! I have never seen this type of battle clasp. It looks very different to those known clasps.....

...for example the lettering and the grain size. BUT I have also never seen fakes of that type!

So if it would be a fake, there would be some more exemplars of that type. So the battle clasp could be really a 1920's or 1930´s clasp BUT

the medal bar should be, in my opinion, a pre-war-/ pre-1914-medal-bar!

Also questionable for me is the combination of Togo-battle-clasp and a portuguese decoration....

...this combination could be possible but it is strange for me! Around Togo was no portuguese colony. There were french, british and spanish colonies but no portuguese colony, so how could he get a portuguese decoration? For example a German-Eastafrica-battle-clasp (with Portuguese-Eastafrica) or a German-Southwest-Africa-battle-clasp (with Angola) would make more sense. As I said it is strange but perhaps not possible. But if someone of Togo (for example a Polizeimeister) received a portuguese decoration....

...COULD (I´m not sure!) be the medal-bar identifiable!

Best wishes

Karsten

[army historian]

Thank you Karsten, From my limited research, I know the Portuguese were in Togo before the Germans. Also I think this is a Colonial Administration Type person (not Military). The threads on the back of the bar are Tan (Khaki) color. He may have served in East Africa or DSWA at some time after (who knows). I don't think he can be research - but I am not an expert in that field, wish I were. Maybe someone like Rick Research could do it. The later clasp does not bother me - original could have been lost - or he did not buy one earlier. The bars were not "issued", the recipient had to buy his clasp. Thanks George

[Leutwein]

Hello George,

why do you exclude a military person?

1894/95 began the "Togo-Expedition" under von Gruner and von Carnap-Quernheimb. This expedition had the goal to open up the back-country of Togo. Can´t imagine that some functionaries have participated there. May be after his military service he could change to the administration.

Another point:

Colonial soldiers received also the AEZ for their retirement.

I´m still not at home....

...so my question: Did (colonial) functionaries also receive the Centenary-medal??

Best wishes

Karsten

Edited August 6, 2012 by Leutwein

[army historian]

Thanks Karsten, That is helpful and something to think about. I only assumed the bar was civilian because of the General Honor Medal (AEZ). So I stand corrected, and that makes the bar even more interesting. You are probably correct that Admin types did not get the Centennial Medal (I am not sure though). Can you give me more information on the 1894/95 Togo expedition, I know almost nothing about it (also can not find much information). Would like to know how many whites were in it, for example. Cheers George

[Rogi]

This Medal Bar is joining my collection soon So I would like to resurrect some discussion on it

Here are some pictures

and back

This is a first for my "Imperial German Collection" so I'd love to find a possible recipient if possible

What do you guys think, doable?

I've been looking through Portuguese sources but everyone tells me that having at least a couple names would help the search on their side.

Edited January 1, 2014 by Rogi

[turtle]

Unfortunately I can´t comment on the medal bar, but it´s a very nice and interesting looking piece!

[Chris Boonzaier]

From a non bar collector... it certainly looks very nice/good to me!

[VtwinVince]

The construction looks good on this one.

[redeagleorder]

Cannot comment on the clasp as I have no experience in that field, but overall the bar looks good (although being a hook back means that the Portugese award could have been something else on a green ribbon). The only thing I find strange about this bar is that even with overseas service which counted double time there is no long service award. Perhaps retired before 1913 and never bothered to swap his LDA brooch in for the new medal, as many others did.

Edited January 1, 2014 by redeagleorder

[Rogi]

Cannot comment on the clasp as I have no experience in that field, but overall the bar looks good (although being a hook back means that the Portugese award could have been something else on a green ribbon). The only thing I find strange about this bar is that even with overseas service which counted double time there is no long service award. Perhaps retired before 1913 and never bothered to swap his LDA brooch in for the new medal, as many others did.

Thank you all for the comments and opinions Greatly enjoyed reading through many thanks

I've been looking at possible candidates and this did come up, but in general was swapping it in required, like would it have cost the recipient funds to do so?

Captain Albert's research yielded

One of the initial possible candidates that this might have belonged to was interned in WW1 which might have made him in-eligible for this swap?

I'll keep doing some research and post some possible names soon. Does anyone have any idea who this might have belonged to (are there lists I should consult or books that could be good for Colonial Germany?)Or even a list of recipients of the Togo Clasp for 1894/95? :D

Edited January 1, 2014 by Rogi

[Leutwein]

In my opion the portugese order would be the key! I think there should be only a few possibilities who got that portugese order. With those few names we could check up who got also the colonial medal of those candidates. Finally we´ll check up if someone of them also received the prussian AEZ (Ordensliste).

Did someone have a list of the portugese order?

Best wishes

Karsten

P.S: Congrats to that nice and interesting bar

[Daniel Krause]

Hi,

that is a very nice but "everything is possible" bar, most likely made around 1912 - as the Colonial Medal was awarded.

Enlisted men and lover ranking officials like this one do not appear in Ranklists or Court and State handbooks.

It might be that everything is legit, it might as well be, that the portugese Avis Order does not belong there.

The key is, as Karsten already mentioned, the Avis.

IF he was a long time Colonial Solder or Official, there might be a chance that the award of the Avis Order is mentioned in the Kolonialverordnungsblatt (Colonial Gazette).

I know there are Portugese Orders listings from the Republic onwards, but I have never seen Award rolls from the Royal time.

Lots of greetings

Daniel

[Rogi]

Thank you all for the comments and suggestions I've looked through the public archival sections on the Portugal Faleristik sites these past weeks (before posting this). My friends from Portugal tell me that it would be easier if I had a small list of recipients vs a larger one for the certain years and told me to ask Imperial German experts if they could find a small list first

I will send the Archives an email soon to see what could be done, I have a list of possible recipients with one name out in front, but would like to attain a better history before going forward with this request.I was told that this might be Dr. Hans Gruner's medal Bar, I believe he was a Lt. at the time of the expedition to Togo.

He was there for the initial contact in 1894/95, but I believe he was still around until 1914 (when supposedly was taken prisoner by the French and released some months later, returning to Germany) after 1914 very little history pops up on him.

I've done a bit of research on his service there and it does seem to match up in some places, would it be possible to obtain a list of his orders and medals?

I will check Portuguese Gazette and see if anything pops up for names.

I know that the Knight class was for Portuguese citizens only awarded to Army Captain and Navy Lt. Ranks, It may vary with Foreign recipients.

P.S. I've started to go through the Portuguese Gazette from 1920, and have been able to find the Decree for granting medals to the Colonies I will keep searching

Searching is a bit slow since I'm translating Portuguese slowly but surley :)

Edited January 5, 2014 by Rogi