Bulgarian Order for Bravery 1915

[new world]

I've just noticed something interest interesting about this lot - it is titled 

A Military Order for Bravery, 1st Class Grand Officer with Swords

This actually makes no sense, Grand Officer is 2nd class and it can not be 1st class at the same time. It's either 2nd or 1st class...

 

[Graf]

There is a mystery around this Set as we agreed or at least discussed

This mistake in the Title is part of it One can assume that this is purely genuine mistake or made on purpose to mislead the potential buyer/s. Keep in mind that we witnessed recently few strange Sets and Stars sold on eBay and somewhere else. The Members of this Club have been informed, however there are still many collectors who act as sole wolfs and spend money on very valuable items with questionable origin.

Those collectors discover the truth only when they try to sell them to Dealer or at Auctions.

Yet, we still do not know all about this Set. personally I will keep away from it

I will lis soont few items that i have in my collection that are not Bravery Order, however they are related to the topic because they are unusual and/or different to the Awards we know

I consider them as makers mistakes or adjustment to the local Awards Also keep in mind that the makers did not follow 100% the design of the Bulgarian Awards

I closely examined those Awards i did not find any signs of foul play

 

Graf

[new world]

5 hours ago, Graf said:

...Yet, we still do not know all about this Set. personally I will keep away from it

That's wise, we shall hope that all collectors avoid this 'set'

[V.Vazov]

Personally I would also never buy such thing.

Unfortunately, I think that such a lot can always be sold, respectively bought as a speculative asset. The sole fact that all of us, and we have quite some knowledge and experience all together, are not claiming it directly as a fake, but have some doubts, proves it.

Often the intelligent men do that mistake by assuming that there’s always other possibility, that we always can eventually be wrong. Besides some part of us want it to be real. If it were real, it’d be so rare, so beautiful. Well it’s not.

In this case I strongly believe we’re not wrong and it’s some kind of assembled fake. Someone have simply butchered a magnificent and rare 3/1 star from 1915. The fact that the fake is old doesn’t change anything, the fraud is not a phenomenon from the last 50 years or so  

Edited January 12, 2018 by V.Vazov

[new world]

You are 100% correct, a fraud us a fraud, even if it's done 50 years ago. Just because it was part of a respected collection does not make it legitimate. We all make mistakes, even the most experienced collectors.  

[Graf]

Hi  Vazov,

The reason we sometimes do not reject an item an we make polite comments is simply because some of those Sellers follow our forum and we do not like to confront them directly. Also despite of some questionable items on their site we still buy a and deal with them if  good items come along. However we have to read between the lines.

If none of us recommends an item it means the odds are very high

Fakes are not new thing. Simply the internet changes the game We are much more informed now.

Fakes , especially on the high end items have existed , perhaps for a very long time.

Also it is not the first respected collector who has had questionable items in his collection

For example few months ago i did buy an extremely rare Model of the French legion of Honour from the First Restoration period It is considered as the rarest one because it lasted only a very short time. It came from a very huge collection of a well respected German Collector. This particular item was published in few German collectors magazines.in the past.

My joy was very high to have such item in my collection

However at the moment i hold it in my hands i suspected a foul play I gently removed the front medallions ( one was already  very lose) My discovery was not pleasant one Someone faked the Order by using and old Cross and added newly made central medallions ( extremely shiny and did not much with the construction of this period) The fakers made two cardinal mistakes that i discovered not before lengthy consultations with experts in the field. It is too long to explain

The glue was modern not the traditional old glue for that time. Simply because i got aware of the problem and i did dare to remove the central parts the foul play was discovered Yet this respected collector knowingly or not had this item in his collection for over 30 years

Yes. sometimes even we suspect an item is fake we deny some facts and we really want to believe that it is a good item.

 I returned the item because the Seller had a return policy Not without a fight, because he believed that the item is OK because it came from a such respected collection and was featured in few magazines

It is a common problem with the WW2 German Knight Cross of the iron Cross and the Imperial Russian Orders they are so finely faked that they can fool ..and they did. many advanced collectors, who had them in their collections ..and are still sold and re-sold on the collector's market

 

The other reason we do not to classify the Bravery Set as 100% Fake is that we all have come across of Orders that are out of the square -i.e words the do not feet the common standard criteria for the design.

However those item look quite genuine and we can only contribute them as  makares Mistakes or as 992F stated the local  makers "adapted" them to the particular country Orders design.

hers are some examples in my collection

- Order St Alexander

-Grand Cross with swords Princely Model- German made ( perhaps by Godet) with design of french maker and the swords "borrowed" from a German Order The Pin system and the swords are typical Godet

- A Commander  Princely Model  by Rothe, however with typical "French' crown or a crown for the 1st Class --

-Officer Princely  Model French made  with added typical French crown It came with French legion of Honour Ribbon -this model is not supposed to have crown

 Knight Class of  Order for Military Merit with wrong  letters  for Order of Civil merit

Miniatures with wrong letters and with adapted swords, The last picture -The Miniature of the Order of Bravery is Austrian made by Mayer The unusual thing is it has reverse medallions on both sides

 

 

[ilieff]

Slightly off-topic: 

The mythical King Boris III's fieldmarshal's baton which was meant to be presented to Him (along with the corresponding military rank) just a fortnight after this death.  

Original invoice for the production this masterpiece was 148 229 reichsmarks, excluding the materials, I believe. Maker is Gerb.Godet&Co (supposedly, the best jewellers in Germany at that time).

The baton is property of the National Military history museum but due to its high value, it's permanently stashed at the National Bank treasury deep underground.

[V.Vazov]

Hello Gentlemen,

Dear Graf, I didn’t ment to offend anyone but simply to protect our fellow collectors who consult our forum. Also, many thanks to you and 922F for the information. I think it’s obvious that we all are very lucky to be able to rely on both your experience and broad view !

Dear Ilief, I have no words to describe my astonishment in front of the beauty of this piece ! Magnificent ! Do you have more info about when and on which occasion it was supposed to be given to the King?

I also notice that the order incrusted on it is rather 3/1 1941 model only with the 1915-1917 years instead (like the personal bravery order of the King). I only wonder if there are the 7 dots, on the ring of the central medallion, can’t really see from the pic but the lion is definitely 1941 model one.

Best,

Vazov

Edited January 13, 2018 by V.Vazov

[new world]

2 hours ago, ilieff said:

The mythical King Boris III's fieldmarshal's baton ...

 

 

Astonishing!!! 

[Igor Ostapenko]

[Graf]

Hi Vazov,

I do not feel offended at all Simply i tried to explain why some members are conservative with their opinion regarding certain items. BTW Someone already put a bid on eMedals site, which mean regardless  of our remarks and opinions as you stated it will be always sold....most likely to a "lonely wolf' collector with deep pockets.

Also collectors similar to the the members of the "Grand Cross' Club who want to have the Set in their collection, who might be aware or not aware of our opinion.

Surprisingly I have had items on ebay made from Gold that are bought by non collectors for presets to their loved ones. They browsed the ebay and came across that particular item and they liked it more as an object then as a collector value..or both.

Scenarios are endless The fact is The Set will be sold.It will be interesting to know when It will appear on the market again. If the buyer is a very private person I bet it will be not very soon.

Hi Ilieff

Thank you for digging deep in the National Treasure and Museum and showing us this historical and amazing Baton  The Price tag is astonishing It suits only a Tzar/King and  In now days terms it means a fortune

The maker if unknown could be also Zimmermann This Firm produced many Luxury  Bulgarian Orders in Gold Platinum and Diamonds, However this is known only to the persons who ordered the baton and the name on the Invoice

.Again  Thank you

[new world]

1 hour ago, Graf said:

BTW Someone already put a bid on eMedals site, which mean regardless  of our remarks and opinions as you stated it will be always sold....most likely to a "lonely wolf' collector with deep pockets.

Also collectors similar to the the members of the "Grand Cross' Club who want to have the Set in their collection, who might be aware or not aware of our opinion.

Someone is thinking he's getting a bargain... That's actually very low price for a Grand Cross of Bravery, if it were to be legitimate!

[Graf]

Hi new World.

That was mu point in my previous posts The initial price of such an Award is very low. that means even Barry knows that this Set is questionable he sells single Stars of other Orders welll above this price  A very high price will scare the bidders who are not aware of the facts

 

The same Scenario we have witnessed over and over again remember all those strange SS Cyril and Methodius Sets sold in Europe They all were sold well bellow the price of the Real Original Sets Also all those strange Sets on ebay All sold bellow what could be the price for a real originals

I forgot to tell you the follow up story of the returned fake of the legion of Honour i discussed in post #31

The Seller re-listed it on his site and tripled the price After a while it vanished from his site either it was sold or he removed it (less likely)

Buyer be Aware Rule apply  Well Good Luck to the new owner One thing is for sure it is not me.

[ilieff]

Hi all,

For those of you who can read Bulgarian, here's the source of the images:

https://www.24chasa.bg/ojivlenie/article/6660366

By the way, this is yet another indicator that the King never wore a bravery order higher than the 3rd class he was given in WW1.

[Graf]

Hi Ilieff,

 

Thank you for the additional info

 Even only the pictures are good enough for me

On one of them King Boris III is wearing his special XX years Service Star

It is a tragic story , however it will be more tragic if the Communists had destroyed the Baton It could have been lost for ever

[new world]

Thanks for the link!

Saving few more pics.

1. White leather covered box to store baton, badge on top of the case:

2. Daily wear version of the baton, not as elaborate:

 

Edited January 14, 2018 by new world

[V.Vazov]

Hello Gentlemen,

The 7 dots are there, the years also, but the order is Godet 1941. 

Best,

Vazov

Edited January 15, 2018 by V.Vazov

[ilieff]

This video basically covers the above article about the baton but with subtitles in English. Enjoy

Edited January 15, 2018 by ilieff

[922F]

I am simply astounded at this heretofore unknown to me treasure!!   The story behind this item excels even its exquisite craftsmanship.  Deepest thanks for sharing this story and source!!   

 

Regarding our discussion of 'unknown' physical insignia,  a recent e#ay lot offered what appears to be possibly a damaged [missing either the obverse coat of arms device or just a damaged center cross but by same maker as usual insignia] star to the Montenegrin Red Cross Order, 3rd or 4th type.   Below images of usual badge and the recently offered 'star'.

 

 

 

[new world]

On 1/13/2018 at 18:16, Graf said:

Hi new World.

That was mu point in my previous posts The initial price of such an Award is very low. that means even Barry knows that this Set is questionable he sells single Stars of other Orders welll above this price  A very high price will scare the bidders who are not aware of the facts

 

The same Scenario we have witnessed over and over again remember all those strange SS Cyril and Methodius Sets sold in Europe They all were sold well bellow the price of the Real Original Sets Also all those strange Sets on ebay All sold bellow what could be the price for a real originals

I forgot to tell you the follow up story of the returned fake of the legion of Honour i discussed in post #31

The Seller re-listed it on his site and tripled the price After a while it vanished from his site either it was sold or he removed it (less likely)

Buyer be Aware Rule apply  Well Good Luck to the new owner One thing is for sure it is not me.

This "set" has 9 bids with 16 hours to go...this is so sad, people are fighting to get it, thinking they will be getting real thing!

[new world]

18 hours ago, new world said:

This "set" has 9 bids with 16 hours to go...this is so sad, people are fighting to get it, thinking they will be getting real thing!

Sold for $6,000 plus 20% auction fee, making the price $7,200. It had 11 bids when I checked few hours before auction end and 3 bidders.

I feel bad for the buyer, so much money for a fantasy set!

[Graf]

Well. That is Life.

What i noticed in the Bidding History The Winning Bidder put 4 bids and no one was did. That means that he "outbid' himself three times??!   It is supposed the Item to be sold on his lowest bid (which was higher than the other Bidders bids)  That is a difference of $500. No idea how the bidding system is on this site works.

 

Otherwise the 3rd Grade Bravery Order, which looked OK, was sold on very reasonable price.-$361 plus 20% com.

[new world]

Back to the Bravery medals sold by eMedals - we assumed the cross is legitimate 2nd class cross, however another collector pointed that there are issues with that cross as well.

Problem is that central pieces are too small - meaning that diameter of circle with green enamel should always be larger than the circular opening on the cross itself. That is evident in any class, even with white enameled circles. If you look at the eMedals' cross from different angle, more from the side you can see this clearly that centers are about the same or smaller than the cross.

Which leads to the conclusion that cross is missing original centers and was assembled from parts of different classes.

This means than none of the awards sold in this lot are original! Even the sash is modern reproduction.

Now I feel REALLY bad for the buyer!    

Edited January 21, 2018 by new world

[new world]

Original cross for comparison - you can see than green centers are noticeably larger 

[Deruelle]

Hi,

 

Nice crosses here. thanks.

I have one question : who make the Bravery Orders  ? Bulgarian maker, Austrian, Russian ? Thanks for your reply

Christophe