Thailand The Most Noble Order of the Crown of Thailand

[JapanX]

You are clearly quite upset Micke. I'm sorry if I said or do anything to offend you. In fact my desicion to post anything in this thread was a huge mistake in the first place.  That will never happen again.  I wish you all the luck in your future research projects.

[1812 Overture]

16 hours ago, JapanX said:

You are clearly quite upset Micke. I'm sorry if I said or do anything to offend you. In fact my desicion to post anything in this thread was a huge mistake in the first place.  That will never happen again.  I wish you all the luck in your future research projects.

I think you are also very upset, friend, if we are together, I really should ask you to have a vodka.

1941? Where is 1941? Please note this gentleman's hat and his bar. Does he wear the 1914-1918 Memorial Medal?

Thai order reference book, all Thai, I don't understand

[Micke]

49 minutes ago, 1812 Overture said:

I think you are also very upset, friend, if we are together, I really should ask you to have a vodka.

1941? Where is 1941? Please note this gentleman's hat and his bar. Does he wear the 1914-1918 Memorial Medal?

Thai order reference book, all Thai, I don't understand

It's very hard to see on the pictures. I have been looking for this book. Where did you find it? 

[1812 Overture]

2 hours ago, Micke said:

It's very hard to see on the pictures. I have been looking for this book. Where did you find it? 

https://www.ebay.fr/str/taoqt

This is my best friend shop, you can ask him, but note that this book is heavy and the freight will not be cheap.

[dedehansen]

On 16/10/2018 at 15:04, Micke said:

This order are a type 1 it stoped in 1941 when the type 2 came. It look like a Danish type of medal mount.

Hi Micke,

your are right, the former Owner was Edvard Alexander Svedstrup, born 1864 and died 1930.

His medals

Kind regards
Andreas

[Micke]

1 hour ago, dedehansen said:

Hi Micke,

your are right, the former Owner was Edvard Alexander Svedstrup, born 1864 and died 1930.

His medals

 

Interesting! He was a danish wrighter. He was in south east asia 1899-1900. Little strange he didnt get a danish order as well....

Edited November 22, 2018 by Micke

[JapanX]

15 hours ago, 1812 Overture said:

I think you are also very upset, friend ...

 

More like devastated by such a waste of my time.  

 

15 hours ago, 1812 Overture said:

 

1941? Where is 1941? 

Of course this photo was made long before 1941.

And no, Johannes Krause doesn`t have Ehrenkreuz des Weltkriegs 1914/1918 in his medal bar.

The last cross is Friedrich-August-Kreuz 2nd class.

There is a lot of other evidence that 2nd type was in use long before 1941.

Period.

[Micke]

On 22/11/2018 at 21:58, JapanX said:

More like devastated by such a waste of my time.  

 

Of course this photo was made long before 1941.

And no, Johannes Krause doesn`t have Ehrenkreuz des Weltkriegs 1914/1918 in his medal bar.

The last cross is Friedrich-August-Kreuz 2nd class.

There is a lot of other evidence that 2nd type was in use long before 1941.

Period.

I been thinking about one thing. All pictures that show the 2nd type before 1941 are on foreigners. 

Can it be that there was 2 different acts. One for Thai and one for foreigners? I’m just guessing. But I think it’s very interesting. 

I admit that I been wrong that the type 2 started after 1941 for everyone. There must be an explanation for this. It requires more digging to find the truth about this. 

Edited November 24, 2018 by Micke

[JapanX]

Doesnt`t look like a Thai person to me.

 

[Micke]

Then this are getting evenmore interesting. There have to be an explanation to this. An order doesn’t just change without any explanations. There are almost always documentation on these things. More then just different pictures. 

 

[Micke]

FINALY!!

After i talked to my friend in Thailand and he did some research he found when both of the orders were changed. It was 1909 just before king Chulalongkorn passed away in 1910. The act of 1941 changed that the collor as the highest class.

In the section 3 of the act is say:

"On his opinion, the order appearance should edite for more magnificent, and collect any class in this order included the newly medals [gold & silver medal] counted as seven classes."

Attached you can see the acts of 1909.

So i admit i was wrong. Sorry for all... But now we know.

"man lär sig något nytt varje dag - you learn new things everyday"

order of the crown 1909.pdf

order of the white elephant 1909.pdf

Edited November 26, 2018 by Micke

[Megan]

Splendid... if only I could read Thai!

[1812 Overture]

On 24/11/2018 at 21:02, Micke said:

Then this are getting evenmore interesting. There have to be an explanation to this. An order doesn’t just change without any explanations. There are almost always documentation on these things. More then just different pictures. 

 

Show you an interesting picture, new and old order!

[Micke]

14 minutes ago, 1812 Overture said:

Show you an interesting picture, new and old order!

Very Nice. Speciellt the mounted orders top left.

[BalkanCollector]

I agree, the bar in the top left corner looks remarkable! Any chance of closer shots?

[Micke]

Here are the medals/orders.

1.  The Order of the white elephant 5^th class type 2 after 1909 and the Order of the crown 5^th class type 1 before 1909.

2. King Rama IX Coronation Medal

3. Border service medal

4. Victory medal - World War II

5. This medal are a combination of two diffrent medals.

Ribbon - The Dvidhabhisek Medal (1898)

Medal - The Coronation of King Rama VII Medal (1925)

6. This medal are a combination of two diffrent medals.

Ribbon - The WWI Campaign Medal (1918)

Medal - Commemorative Medal on the Occasion of the 150th Years of Rattanakosin Celebration (1932)

[ThaiDave]

Hi All,

Reading thru the 1909 decrees, it says that they improved the appearance, and therein describe the "2nd type", so this seems the date of the design change on paper.  The previous Thai orders book (red cover book shown in above post) says the same, although this description is placed in the book before the pictures of the 2nd type, so it could be a little confusing for non-Thai reader looking only at the dates.  In the Thai orders book, the 1941 decree is placed at the 2nd type pictures.

It's interesting that there are only a handful of pictures certain (picture with actual direct evidence of date of picture) to be before 1941 showing the 2nd type (and another handful which have some evidence to be before 1941, but not 100% certain - i.e. presumed date but could be early uniform worn later, etc).  Most of the pics seen are foreigners - I've seen only 1 picture of a Royal Thai suspected to be before 1940s with 2nd type (personal collection from a major Thai collector/dealer, and it was the only one he said he saw also). Presumably there must be lots of pictures out there from this period (1909-1941).

The early specimens 2nd type seem to be rare. I collect by date and variety, and I have seen only a few which appear to be very very old (potentially before 1950s). (I have about 400 examples, and probably seen in-hand another 1000, so perhaps it might be some kind of evidence?).  Many of the examples which appear to be older are dated, and I think the earliest dated example I've seen is 2496 (1953). My Thai collector friends don't report earlier dated pieces (but Thai's don't collect medals much, with few deeply interested, so it's not so definitive. Thai instead focus on Buddhist medals/amulets).  However, with this information, and that it has been a while since I carefully looked at them, I'll have to have a critical re-look...

The 2nd type example above (in JapanX post) appears somewhat to be similar to Benson (UK) made example, but ribbon and box are new (maybe 70's + ?). J.W. Benson was the main early producer of (all/some types ?) Thai wearable medals. I've seen only 3 Benson made 2nd types of OWE, plus perhaps this one.  I've not seen any confirmed Benson made 2nd type of OC (but have couple which could be quite old).  As I understood, Benson was bombed in WW2 and stopped medal production then. Not sure if they stopped Thai medal production before then, or how much they were making the 2nd type.   I have some both OWE and OC recovered from the Zimmerman fire of both types, so early type was still available later (WW2 bombed in Germany and put out of business, so confirmed date).  There were other manufactures in Europe, however perhaps very low mintage.

Thai's and most foreigners would not have changed the type they already had when the regulations were changed.  And it may be that the old one was used until manufacturer stocks depleted, however long that might be (currently Thai government production doesn't meet demand, so there are no excess stocks except with third-party manufacturers who regularly carry stock, but who knows back then). The Thai government didn't make them originally, and Thai's would probably not be fussy about that. It might also be that the design was changed on paper, but the makers still made the old style ? Makers may not have made new dies until later ? Also, Thai government requires the return of a previous grade when increasing the grade - not sure how long that regulation has been there.  The returned one is cleaned, and reissued (with new box and ribbon). Perhaps they reissued the old version for some time back then, if that practice was applicable ?  So even if the design changed, there may be long overlap period until the old type was effectively phased out ? A lot of speculation - an interesting area for research.

For comparison with the award certificates, from what I have seen, the old style certificate showing the old design medal was used up thru 1941, which the new style certificate showing the new design medal was used starting in 1942.

Rgds

Dave

1941 Certificate with old style medal picture

1942 Certificate with new style medal picture

On 19/11/2018 at 17:18, Micke said:

I have heard that there where a version of the order of the white elephan that looks really close to a type 2 but it was in between type 1 and 2. See pictures of the order in 4th class. The first picture are oldest, between type 1 and type 2. See the differences in the circles. (It can just be a tall tail to, that it is just diffrent makers och the order :9 ) 

 

This is manufacturer difference.  Check the reverse for potential date hallmark (last two digits in Thai B.E.)

Edited February 17, 2019 by ThaiDave
correction

[Micke]

On ‎17‎/‎02‎/‎2019 at 10:34, ThaiDave said:

For comparison with the award certificates, from what I have seen, the old style certificate showing the old design medal was used up thru 1941, which the new style certificate showing the new design medal was used starting in 1942.

Very interesting thoughts you have and i agree with them.

My thoughts on the award certificates can be that in The act of 1941 it changed that the collor as the highest class of the order. Thats why they changes the certificates...  

[ThaiDave]

Hi Micke

The special class was created in 1909, not 1941.  (Their was also a collar created in 1893, but used only for the King. In the regulations others could have it, but it was never given out and eventually canceled.)

[Micke]

On ‎22‎/‎02‎/‎2019 at 16:45, ThaiDave said:

Hi Micke

The special class was created in 1909, not 1941.  (Their was also a collar created in 1893, but used only for the King. In the regulations others could have it, but it was never given out and eventually canceled.)

Yes i know it was  created in 1909. But in the act of 1941, as i understand it, the collar became the highest class, there for they changed the certificates to show the highest class of that order..

The picture are a certificate from the Royal Swedish order of the Sword. Its for a knight 1 class. It is showing the collar of the same order on the certificate. (sorry its not so good picture....)

The class system used in Thai RTO, Royal Thai Orders, are little diffrent then the class system in europe. The Thai RTO system was structured according to european style, but not everything. Everone say that the Thai RTO have 36 classes. But when you count them its 44 classes because In Thai RTO the medals are named as a class of the order, that is not the case in europe. In europe the medals are connected to the order but are not a class of the order. Rename the medals in thise orders to onley Gold and Silver medal, not with a class.

Example: In The order of the white elephant. There are the 6th and 7th class. That are Gold and Silver medals. They should be named Gold-/Silver-medal of the order of the white elephant. Not 6th-/7th- class of the order of the white elephant. Because they are not a class of the order.

This was a little sidestep... but i think this is interesteing and i think Thai RTO should change there system......

 

 

 

 

[ThaiDave]

Hi MIcke

There was a collar from 1893 thru 1941.  It was only ever used by the king.

The special class is not a collar. It was created in 1909, and was the highest class (presumably below the collar).

The insignia on the 1942 certificates on is the special class, not the now obsolete collar.

However, until 1941, the type of medal displayed on the certificates was the type obsoleted in 1909. Strange to show the obsoleted design when it was not longer used

Rgds
Dave

 

Edited March 2, 2019 by ThaiDave

[922F]

1812, in your post 27 is that a book on Imperial Korean  awards next to the Thai book?  Have you any details baout it?  Thank you!  

[Micke]

On ‎02‎/‎03‎/‎2019 at 06:36, ThaiDave said:

Hi MIcke

There was a collar from 1893 thru 1941.  It was only ever used by the king.

The special class is not a collar. It was created in 1909, and was the highest class (presumably below the collar).

The insignia on the 1942 certificates on is the special class, not the now obsolete collar.

However, until 1941, the type of medal displayed on the certificates was the type obsoleted in 1909. Strange to show the obsoleted design when it was not longer used 

Rgds
Dave

 

Hi Dave

What i mean is that the certificates are showing the highest grade of the order.

I agree that its strange that the certificat are showing the obsoleted medal. Maybe they hade alot of them and used them until lthey were finished up.

What are your thoughts about the diffrent classes i mentioned?

 

BR

Micke

 

[ThaiDave]

On 04/03/2019 at 11:28, Micke said:

Hi Dave

What i mean is that the certificates are showing the highest grade of the order.

I agree that its strange that the certificat are showing the obsoleted medal. Maybe they hade alot of them and used them until lthey were finished up.

What are your thoughts about the diffrent classes i mentioned?

 

BR

Micke

 

Hi Micke

I don't know if that is good explanation for certificates - seems odd that they would have so many extra documents printed up that they would last for another 30 years. And then the documents would get used up just the time they do a re-write of the order regulations, and coincidentally the old wisdom of the date for the type change at this time. (1941 was what I had heard decades ago as people told me also).

Yes, the documents for all grades are with the highest class of the award.

Have you found any new information on this ?  I got a translation of the Thai government book in English and read thru again.  It says as we know from the regulations the design change in 1909.  But I just don't see it fully in practice, except for some pictures as have been posted.  1909 to 1941 isn't a short time, and so I would expect a lot more of the new model found in old patina and more pictures of Thais as well as foreigners - and I just don't see that much. Maybe those years the awards were few, and therefore not much around. Maybe not everyone changed to the new model, and 1941 was a hard reset to the new model.

So I think it still needs more research how it played out in practice. 

Rgds

Dave

[Micke]

12 hours ago, ThaiDave said:

Hi Micke

I don't know if that is good explanation for certificates - seems odd that they would have so many extra documents printed up that they would last for another 30 years. And then the documents would get used up just the time they do a re-write of the order regulations, and coincidentally the old wisdom of the date for the type change at this time. (1941 was what I had heard decades ago as people told me also).

Yes, the documents for all grades are with the highest class of the award.

Have you found any new information on this ?  I got a translation of the Thai government book in English and read thru again.  It says as we know from the regulations the design change in 1909.  But I just don't see it fully in practice, except for some pictures as have been posted.  1909 to 1941 isn't a short time, and so I would expect a lot more of the new model found in old patina and more pictures of Thais as well as foreigners - and I just don't see that much. Maybe those years the awards were few, and therefore not much around. Maybe not everyone changed to the new model, and 1941 was a hard reset to the new model.

So I think it still needs more research how it played out in practice. 

Rgds

Dave

Hi Dave

I agree with you that this needs much more research. In 32 years there should be a lot of orders given out to both Thai and to foreigners. Do you have a digital copy of that english translated book? You are correct that it sounds crazy that they should have printed certificates that lasted for over 30 years. Thats just stupid. So why it shows the old award are also a puzzel to solve. I have tried to send emails to the Thai secretariat but they never answer.