Utgardloki Posted March 9, 2019 Share Posted March 9, 2019 (edited) As you know there were and are special grandcross sashes for priests in austria, that are worn around the neck. Were they only a austrian phenomen or do they exist elsewhere? Archbishop Vincenc Eduard Milde: (Source: Wikipedia) Cardinal-Archbishop Joseph Othmar Ritter von Rauscher: (Source: Wikipedia) Cardinal-Archbishop Johann Rudolf Kutschker: (Source Wikipedia) Another picture from Kutschker: Cardinal-Archbishop Friedrich Gustav Piffl: (also Wikipedia, look at that Red Cross star!) If you wonder, in the first Republic these sashes or should I say giant neckbands still existetd: Cardinal-Archbishop Theodor Innitzer (Ehrenzeichen für Verdienste um die Republik Österreich). He's wearing the beautiful Cappa Magna (rearaly seen today). The painting is by Tom von Dreger, he also painted Cardinal Piffl. von Dreger did also paint Kaiser Franz Joseph I as British field marshal (I think his batton and Garter can be seen at the HGM in Vienna) in 1913 (Quelle: Belvedere Wien) By the way, isn't it forbidden to where both the collar and the sash or "Greater and Lesser George" of the order of the garter together... But back to the topic. Those priest sashes also exist for the 1952 Ehrenzeichen für Verdienste um die Republik Österreich. Last year His Excellancy The Apostolic Nuntius Archbishop Zurbriggen (Yes I love those titles) went into retirement: And at the end heres a priest version of a grand cross of the order of the Iron Crown: I would love to see more pictures and get more information about this beatuiful variety. Edited March 9, 2019 by Utgardloki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utgardloki Posted March 9, 2019 Author Share Posted March 9, 2019 (edited) I found a picture of Archduke Rudolph of Austria, Cardinal and Archbishop of Olmütz (or Olomouc in english), waering the grandcross of the order of Saint Stephen and what's more interesting he's wearing, what I think is the Hausorden der Rautenkrone (House Order of the Rue Crown) behind it. Edited March 9, 2019 by Utgardloki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great Dane Posted March 9, 2019 Share Posted March 9, 2019 Great photos! I know that in the 1808 statutes for the Danish Order of Dannebrog (when it was made into a multi-class order) it is specified that persons already awarded the Order of the Elephant (the other Danish order) or clergy is to wear the Grand Cross insignia around the neck. However, paintings and (later) photos suggest that it was worn from a ribbon similar to the Commanders, i.e. not sash width. In 1912 the insignia for the Grand Cross was made identical to the Commander, so the only way to tell if a priest was a Grand Cross or a Commander was by the breast star. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carol I Posted March 9, 2019 Share Posted March 9, 2019 (edited) Romanian clergymen have also worn the sashes around the neck: B/W photo of Bishop Melchisedec (1823-1892) and colour photo of Patriarch Teoctist (1915-2007). Edited March 9, 2019 by Carol I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
922F Posted March 9, 2019 Share Posted March 9, 2019 (edited) I formerly owned a royal Greek Redeemer grand cross, a Lion & Sun grand cordon, and Osmanie & Medjidjie grand cordon sets with sash arranged for wear around neck. These reputedly came from an 1880-1910 group of awards formerly belonging to an Armenian Patriarch. Displays at the Armenian Patriarchate offices in Jerusalem and Istambul include many of former Patriarchs wearing Grand Cross/Cordon sashes of various nations worn in this fashion. I attach three images for your information Further many images of other religious leaders, especially those dating from the 1860’s to 1920’s, usually Eastern Orthodox, Coptic, and Bektashi leaders, show the same format sashes. Besides the Orders cited above, these include various Imperial Russian, Bokharan, Serbian and other decorations. Somewhere I have an image of an Albanian Bektashi leader wearing a Zog Era Scanderbeg sash around his neck--a 1942 image of a Roman Catholic Bishop [?] wearing the Italian varient Scanderbeg Grand Cross set depicts him wearing a sash in the usual cross chest manner. The question of whether the broad ribbon around the neck were/are official sanctioned styles or local customary usages remains unknown to me. Edited March 9, 2019 by 922F add image Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utgardloki Posted March 9, 2019 Author Share Posted March 9, 2019 Wow, thank you for sharing those great pictures. The difference to the austrian orders i can see (correct me if I'm wrong) is, that it seems like they got the same sash as normally, but wear them around the neck, whereas the austrian sashs were specially sewn for priests (without any rosettes or meshs and without the two ends, not that long and it seems like they even have a curvature to fit better) On the first picture Carol shared of Bishop Melchisedec the two upper sashs look like miniature sashs, very interesting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Great Dane Posted March 9, 2019 Share Posted March 9, 2019 To elaborate on my previous post, here is a photo (source: Danish Royal Library) of bishop Hans Martensen wearing the insignia of the Grand Cross of the Order of Dannebrog (the breast star is the Grand Cross star). Not much of the neck ribbon is visible, but it is clearly not sash width. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
utopis Posted March 10, 2019 Share Posted March 10, 2019 The above picture of the award ceremony for the Decoration for Services to the Republic of Austria is very interesting. Clearly the sash has already been tailored to the archbishop before being handed to him. So it would seem that this is indeed official practice. I always assumed that this form of wear is based on the liturgical stole which would explain why it is usually encountered on catholic clergymen or those belonging to the eastern denominations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bayern Posted March 10, 2019 Share Posted March 10, 2019 7 hours ago, Utgardloki said: I found a picture of Archduke Rudolph of Austria, Cardinal and Archbishop of Olmütz (or Olomouc in english), waering the grandcross of the order of Saint Stephen and what's more interesting he's wearing, what I think is the Hausorden der Rautenkrone (House Order of the Rue Crown) behind it. Hello, Its the Order der Rautenkrone , created in the year 1801 by King Friedrich August I of Saxony. remember that existed one class only. and that was the civilian counterpart of St Henry Order. 8 hours ago, Utgardloki said: I found a picture of Archduke Rudolph of Austria, Cardinal and Archbishop of Olmütz (or Olomouc in english), waering the grandcross of the order of Saint Stephen and what's more interesting he's wearing, what I think is the Hausorden der Rautenkrone (House Order of the Rue Crown) behind it. Hello, Its the Order der Rautenkrone , created in the year 1801 by King Friedrich August I of Saxony. remember that existed one class only. and that was the civilian counterpart of St Henry Order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christian1962 Posted March 10, 2019 Share Posted March 10, 2019 6 hours ago, utopis said: The above picture of the award ceremony for the Decoration for Services to the Republic of Austria is very interesting. Clearly the sash has already been tailored to the archbishop before being handed to him. So it would seem that this is indeed official practice. I always assumed that this form of wear is based on the liturgical stole which would explain why it is usually encountered on catholic clergymen or those belonging to the eastern denominations. I can confirm that it´s official use but I cannot say when this startet. But I would assume it was before 1918. And I can attach a pic (sorry for the poor quality, but my mobile phone has a bad camera) of a complete sash from the 1930ties. Regards Christian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utgardloki Posted March 10, 2019 Author Share Posted March 10, 2019 (edited) 16 hours ago, Great Dane said: Great photos! I know that in the 1808 statutes for the Danish Order of Dannebrog (when it was made into a multi-class order) it is specified that persons already awarded the Order of the Elephant (the other Danish order) or clergy is to wear the Grand Cross insignia around the neck. However, paintings and (later) photos suggest that it was worn from a ribbon similar to the Commanders, i.e. not sash width. In 1912 the insignia for the Grand Cross was made identical to the Commander, so the only way to tell if a priest was a Grand Cross or a Commander was by the breast star. Thats interesting, the Order of the Black Eagle (Prussia) had a similiar regulation, were you get the Red Eagle Order grandcross to be worn around the neck, but if there was a regulation for the clergy i don't know. 4 hours ago, Christian1962 said: I can confirm that it´s official use but I cannot say when this startet. But I would assume it was before 1918. And I can attach a pic (sorry for the poor quality, but my mobile phone has a bad camera) of a complete sash from the 1930ties. Regards Christian Thats a nice piece, I would love to own As you can see from the pictures above, it was a normal thing during the imperial times, they just transfered the tradition into the republic. Edited March 10, 2019 by Utgardloki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utgardloki Posted March 10, 2019 Author Share Posted March 10, 2019 Thats a picture of a procession in Florenz: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carol I Posted March 10, 2019 Share Posted March 10, 2019 23 hours ago, Utgardloki said: Wow, thank you for sharing those great pictures. The difference to the austrian orders i can see (correct me if I'm wrong) is, that it seems like they got the same sash as normally, but wear them around the neck, whereas the austrian sashs were specially sewn for priests (without any rosettes or meshs and without the two ends, not that long and it seems like they even have a curvature to fit better) On the first picture Carol shared of Bishop Melchisedec the two upper sashs look like miniature sashs, very interesting Indeed it is the style of wearing the sashes that is different for the Orthodox clergy and its origin could be that proposed by Utopis. As to the question whether they are 'normal sashes', the photographic evidence indicates that in some cases as that of Bishop Melchisedec above and Bishop Nifon (1860-1923) below they were narrower versions, at least those of the Romanian orders. And to come back to the orders that started this topic, please find a painting of Metropolitan Nifon (1789-1875) wearing an Austrian Order of Franz Joseph, apparently fastened directly to the ribbon of the Russian Order of St Anne. The Austrian sash is not visible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bayern Posted March 11, 2019 Share Posted March 11, 2019 Hello. I think that the mode of carry the sashes for members of the Roman Catholic or Orthodox Churches owns much to the Academic world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tifes Posted March 11, 2019 Share Posted March 11, 2019 (edited) 18 hours ago, Christian1962 said: I can confirm that it´s official use but I cannot say when this startet. But I would assume it was before 1918. And I can attach a pic (sorry for the poor quality, but my mobile phone has a bad camera) of a complete sash from the 1930ties. Regards Christian It has started since the very beginning. It´s regulated by the Status of each Austrian/A-H Order, which in case of St. Stephan´s Order as an oldest merit order, means year 1764. Then it was repeated in Statutes of Leopold, Iron Crown and Franz Joseph Orders. In case of clergy, the sash designated for Grand Cross/I. Class (EKO) always kept the same attributes as colours, width etc. but it was placed round the neck. As I see it continued beyond 1918 into the 1st Austrian republic (which I didn’t know). Definitely it wasn’t some “fancy manner” of clergy but strict regulation. Tifes Edited March 11, 2019 by tifes grammar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utgardloki Posted March 28, 2019 Author Share Posted March 28, 2019 (edited) At the Ordre du Saint-Esprit (Order of the Holy Spirit - highest royal french order) this "sash"-style existed too: Anne-Antoine-Jules de Clermont-Tonnerre - Cardinal-Archishop of Toulouse: Source:Wikipedia Étienne Charles de Loménie de Brienne: Edited March 28, 2019 by Utgardloki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utgardloki Posted March 28, 2019 Author Share Posted March 28, 2019 (edited) Charles-Antoine de la Roche-Aymon: Gravure de Pierre Drevet d'après Hyacinthe Rigaud: Rivau lived from 1664-1739, the Order of St.Stephen was founded 1764, so I came up with the theory this was a french thing, adapted to the Austrian Orders when founded, Does anyone know if the "sash style waering" in generall was first done by the french (thinking of the Holy Spirit Cordon bleu) Edited March 28, 2019 by Utgardloki grammar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utgardloki Posted March 28, 2019 Author Share Posted March 28, 2019 (edited) Would be nice if there is an expert on the order of the holy spirit. I know that there were 8 Ecclesiastic members the Commandeurs (Commanders), where these the only priest allowed in? It seems like the whole thing of wearing commander-insignia around the neck origins from this special form of wearing sashs??? Does anyone know anything that confirms these theory? Edited March 28, 2019 by Utgardloki grammar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utgardloki Posted March 28, 2019 Author Share Posted March 28, 2019 in Spain: Luis María de Borbón y Vallabriga: Cirilo de Alameda y Brea: Victoriano Guisasola y Menéndez: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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