Pour le Merite - Appropriate insignia?

[Wessel Gordon]

I have a collection of South African, British and US medals as well as a single copy of a Pour le Merite. With the three other groupings I'm planning to include the insignia of a high ranking officer of the appropriate military. What would be an appropriate rank (and date of that rank) be to display with the Pour le Merite?

For the SADF collection I have a full colonel's shoulder boards, for the British collection i am working on getting a full general's ''parade dress'' insignia and for the US collection I have the insignia of a four star general.

Any suggestions?

 

[P.F.]

The Pour le Mérite was awarded to Leutnants and up.

[Wessel Gordon]

P.F.

Thanks for the reply. What's the odds of it have been awarded to a colonel or higher?

Since my other three insignia's far outranks a mere lieutenant it would look a bit odd to flank the Pour le Merite with the insignia of a lieutenant.

 

 

[VtwinVince]

No problem with it being awarded to field grade officers, sometimes with the Oakleaves.

[laurentius]

I wonder how many field grade officers actually got a PLM with oakleaves, since they were only given to officers (usually generals) who had succesfully won a battle. This was also the reason Manfred von Richthofen couldn't receive the oakleaves, hence he was given the RAO3xKR.

Kind regards, Laurentius

[Wessel Gordon]

Laurentius,

Good question.

I would reckon that Manfred von Richthofen with his 80 confirmed aerial victories merited the Oak Leaves since he obviously won quite a few significant battles of his own and by shooting down so many aircraft prevented them from being used in a mass attack on the German lines.

 

[Daniel Krause]

concerning the plm with oaks for field grade Officers, there were quite a few.

Alone 6 Regimental Commanders, Schwerk, Forstner, Kraehe, v.Goerne, Graf Eulenburg and Reinhard,

21 General Staff Officers - among them as lowest ranking guy Major Wetzell.

 

Best,

Daniel

[Wessel Gordon]

Daniel,

Thanks for the interesting information.

I attach a copy of my PLM so as all those that joined in the discussion can see it's the ordinary PLM without Oak Leaves. 

If the lowest ranking officer that got the Oak Leaves version was a major I guess the highest appropriate insignia for the ordinary PLM would be a captain.

That begs another question: the last PLM was awarded on 22 September 1918 should it be a Prussian captain or should it be German?

During the German Revolution in November 1918 the Kaiser and all the other monarchs of territories consisting modern Germany abdicated and the Treaty of Versailles was signed by Germany.

 

[graham]

Wessel Gordon,

Their were a number of PLM's and Oak leaves awarded after 22 September 1918 to various ranks: -

			Award date
Ernst Graf Yorck von Wartenburg	Major	Army	23-Sep-18
Curt von Brandenstein	Oberstleutnant	Heer	26-Sep-18
Otto Könnecke	Oberstleutnant	Luftstreitkräfte	26-Sep-18
Walter Blume	Leutnant	Luftstreitkräfte	30-Sep-18
Wilhelm Griebsch	Leutnant	Luftstreitkräfte	30-Sep-18
Eckhard von Loeben	Generalmajor	Heer	30-Sep-18
Rudolf Lüders	General der Infanterie	Heer	30-Sep-18
Carl Nehbel	General der Artillerie	Heer	30-Sep-18
Leo Leonhardy	Major	Luftstreitkräfte	2-Oct-18
Kurt Hartwig	Korvettenkapitän	Marine	3-Oct-18
Stanislaus Behrendt	Hauptmann	Army	4-Oct-18
Ernst Busch	Generalfeldmarschall	Heer	4-Oct-18
Franz Freiherr von Edelsheim	Oberstleutnant	Heer	4-Oct-18
Georg Pohlmann	Generalmajor	Heer	4-Oct-18
Walter Schultz	Major	Heer	4-Oct-18
Detlew Vett	Generalleutnant	Heer	4-Oct-18
Heinrich Schmedes	Oberstleutnant	Heer	5-Oct-18
Hans Krug von Nidda	General der Kavallerie	Heer	7-Oct-18
Horst von Metzsch	General der Artillerie	Heer	7-Oct-18
Dr. Oskar von Hahnke	Oberst	Heer	8-Oct-18
Alfred von Kleist	Generalleutnant	Heer	8-Oct-18
Theordor von Weber	Oberstleutnant	Heer	8-Oct-18
Fritz Wulff	Major	Heer	8-Oct-18
Felix von Bernuth	Hauptmann	Army	9-Oct-18
Tido von Brederlow	Generalmajor	Heer	9-Oct-18
Ludwig Breßler	General der Infanterie	Heer	9-Oct-18
Ernst Kabisch	General der Infanterie	Heer	9-Oct-18
Otto Lancelle	Generalleutnant	Heer	9-Oct-18
Arnold Ritter von Möhl	General der Infanterie	Heer	9-Oct-18
Wilhelm Pfaehler	Major	Heer	9-Oct-18
Karl Seidel	Hauptmann	Heer	9-Oct-18
Hermann Wilck	Hauptmann	Heer	9-Oct-18
Daniel Gerth	Hauptmann	Heer	11-Oct-18
Rudolph Popelka	Oberst	Österreichische Armee	11-Oct-18
Friedrich Kundt	Generalleutnant	Heer	12-Oct-18
Franz-Karl von Bock	Oberst	Heer	13-Oct-18
Hans von der Esch	Generalleutnant	Heer	13-Oct-18
Jürgen von Grone	Major	Luftstreitkräfte	13-Oct-18
Erich Homburg	Generalleutnant	Luftstreitkräfte	13-Oct-18
Heinrich Kirchheim	Hauptmann	Heer	13-Oct-18
Albert Müller-Kahle	Generalmajor	Luftstreitkräfte	13-Oct-18
Karl Paulus	Oberst	Heer	13-Oct-18
Robert von Greim	Generalfeldmarschall	Luftstreitkräfte	14-Oct-18
Eduard Kreuter	Generalmajor	Heer	14-Oct-18
Max Clausius	Oberst	Heer	15-Oct-18
August von Tippelstirch	Hauptmann	Heer	15-Oct-18
Georg von Götz	Major	Heer	17-Oct-18
Hans Sehmsdorff	Major	Heer	17-Oct-18
Adolf Franke	General der Artillerie	Heer	18-Oct-18
Paul Baader	Major	Army	20-Oct-18
Heinrich Brinkord	Oberstleutnant	Heer	21-Oct-18
Albrecht Graf von Stosch	Major	Heer	21-Oct-18
Ernst von Uechtritz und Steinkirch	Gereralmajor	Army	21-Oct-18
Walter Arens	Major	Army	25-Oct-18
Oskar Freiherr von Boenigk	Generalmajor	Luftstreitkräfte	25-Oct-18
Hans Bronsart von Schellendorff	Major	Heer	25-Oct-18
Franz Büchner	Leutnant	Luftstreitkräfte	25-Oct-18
Johannes von Dassel	General der Infanterie	Heer	25-Oct-18
Arthur Laumann	Generalmajor	Luftstreitkräfte	25-Oct-18
Leopold Milisch	Generalmajor	Heer	25-Oct-18
Georg Mühry	General der Infanterie	Heer	25-Oct-18
Ernst von Oven	General der Infanterie	Heer	25-Oct-18
Hermann Rudolph	Oberstleutnant	Heer	25-Oct-18
Albert Schoen	Major	Heer	25-Oct-18
Olivier Freiherr von Beaulieu-Marconnay	Leutnant	Air Force	26-Oct-18
Rudolf Dänner	Generalleutnant	Heer	26-Oct-18
Wilhelm von Puttkamer	Generalleutnant	Heer	26-Oct-18
Johann Ritter von Schmidtler	Major	Heer	26-Oct-18
Albert Heuck	Generalleutnant	Heer	28-Oct-18
Edgar Josenhanß	Major	Luftstreitkräfte	28-Oct-18
Hans Petri	General der Infanterie	Heer	28-Oct-18
Fritz Rümmelein	Leutnant	Heer	28-Oct-18
Wilhelm Kaupert	Generalleutnant	Heer	29-Oct-18
Siegfried Woltersdorf	Major	Heer	29-Oct-18
Clemens Pfafferott	Major	Heer	30-Oct-18
Heinrich Strack	Hauptmann	Heer	30-Oct-18
Hermann Wülfing	Major	Heer	30-Oct-18
Ralph von Egidy	Generalmajor	Heer	31-Oct-18
Ernst Hammacher	Oberst	Heer	31-Oct-18
Fritjof Freiherr von Hammerstein-Gesmold	Generalleutnant	Heer	1-Nov-18
Gustav von Oppen	Oberst	Heer	1-Nov-18
Hans Sottorf	Hauptmann	Heer	1-Nov-18
Karl Thom	Leutnant	Luftstreitkräfte	1-Nov-18
Emil Waldorf	Generalleutnant	Heer	1-Nov-18
Paul Bäumer	Leutnant	Air Force	2-Nov-18
Hans von Grothe	Generalmajor	Heer	2-Nov-18
Benno Pflugradt	Major	Heer	3-Nov-18
Friedrich Wilhelm von Hetzberg	General der Kavallerie	Heer	4-Nov-18
Rudolf Rusche	Generalleutnant	Heer	4-Nov-18
Friedrich Bruns	Oberst	Heer	6-Nov-18
Gustav Dammann	Generalleutnant	Heer	6-Nov-18
Theodor Groppe	Generalleutnant	Heer	6-Nov-18
Hans Freiherr von Hammerstein-Gesmold	General der Infanterie	Heer	6-Nov-18
Hans-Heinrich von Kahlden	Oberstleutnant	Heer	6-Nov-18
Wilhelm Osiander	Oberstleutnant	Heer	6-Nov-18
Franz de Rainville	Major	Heer	6-Nov-18
Ernst von Schönfeldt	Major	Heer	6-Nov-18
Adolf Schwab	Oberstleutnant	Heer	6-Nov-18
Otto Stobbe	Major	Heer	6-Nov-18
Siegfried von Held	Generalleutnant	Heer	7-Nov-18
Armand von Alberti	Oberst	Army	8-Nov-18
Friedrich Ritter von Bogendörfer	Generalmajor	Heer	8-Nov-18
Carl Degelow	Major	Luftstreitkräfte	8-Nov-18
Erich Gaertner	Oberstleutnant	Heer	8-Nov-18
Wilhelm Edler von Graeve	Oberstleutnant	Heer	8-Nov-18
Karl Hansen	Generalleutnant	Heer	8-Nov-18
Ernst Kaether	Generalmajor	Heer	8-Nov-18
Emil Berthold Meyer	Major	Heer	8-Nov-18
Ulrich Neckel	Leutnant	Luftstreitkräfte	8-Nov-18
Maximilian Freiherr von Reitzenstein	Oberst	Heer	8-Nov-18
				Oak Leaves award date
Siegfried von la Chevallerie	General der Artillerie	Heer	20-Jan-18	5-Oct-18
Ernst von Below	Generalmajor	Army	24-Nov-17	13-Oct-18
Otto Ritter von Rauchenberger	Generalleutnant	Heer	6-Sep-17	19-Oct-18
Günther von Etzel	General der Kavallerie	Heer	4-Aug-18	25-Oct-18
Curt von dem Borne	General der Infanterie	Heer	9-Apr-18	3-Nov-18
Felix Langer	General der Infanterie	Heer	8-Oct-17	7-Nov-18
Arthur von Lindequist	Generalleutnant	Heer	23-Dec-17	7-Nov-18

[Wessel Gordon]

Graham,

Thanks for the exhaustive list.

I notice that among the recipients of the PLM with Oak Leaves after 22 September 1918 there are several lieutenants. Do you perhaps have an idea what would warrant what seems to be a fairly senior award to a junior officer like a lieutenant at a time when hostilities was calming down after World War 1? Was it belated recognition of actions involving the necessary merit/gallantry during the war?

[graham]

Wessel Gordon,

No problem.

Sorry, if my previous post was not very clear. I should have stated that there were two lists. The first and larger list(110 names and ranks) comprises of recipients of the PLM (not Oak Leaves) after 22 September 1918 and the second smaller list at the bottom, which is of seven recipients, is the list of those German military personnel(all Generals) that were awarded the Oak Leaves again after 22 September 1918, to go with their previously won PLM's earlier in the war.

Below is a website that gives some information on the period from 8 August 1918 until 11 November 1918 on the Western Front, which is called the 'Hundred Days Offensive'.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hundred_Days_Offensive

Hope this helps.

Regards,

Graham

[Wessel Gordon]

Graham,

Thanks again.

[Wessel Gordon]

Does anybody have any idea where I can find Prussian/German rank insignia dated around the end of WW1?

I checked Ebay but most of those items are either WW2 or East/West Germany so it's obviously not going to work with a PLM of 1918.

[GdC26]

On 14/08/2019 at 18:28, Wessel Gordon said:

Does anybody have any idea where I can find Prussian/German rank insignia dated around the end of WW1?

I checked Ebay but most of those items are either WW2 or East/West Germany so it's obviously not going to work with a PLM of 1918.

Here you go, two of several:

https://www.weitze.net/militaria/Preussen_39.html

https://www.sammler-cabinett.de/shop/de/militaria-allgemein-effekten-muetzen-uniformteile-usw-deutsches-kaiserreich.html

From  the pic, the plm strikes me as a copy from well after 1918 - but then I guess you know that. 

Kind regards,

Sandro

[Wessel Gordon]

Sandro,

Thanks for the links.

I know for a fact it's a copy...it was advertised as such and I bought it with the full knowledge it didn't hang around some guy's neck in 19-whatever. However if someone with an interest in military history sees it displayed in my house he might think ''Looks interesting...I wonder what the history behind the real medal is''. And as far as my research and Graham's post indicates the PLM was last rewarded in 1918...hence the fact I'm looking for the insignia of around that year.

I know I am in the minority but I buy medals that catches my eye and although it has a massive impact on the financial value of my collection I do not mind owning copies of medals I really like such as the PLM.

To me it's about the thrill of having a copy of a medal I always wanted to own and although it would be awesome to have genuine medals with their full history having the story behind a genuine medal isn't the deciding factor in owning it.

In my SADF collection I have 10 full-sized medals all stamped with serial numbers and they were confirmed by a person more knowledgeable than me as genuine SADF issue and that fact alone is enough for me.

The other factor that influence my decision to buy well-made copies is that they display better than a faded real medal and all my medals I eventually intend to display.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 15, 2019 by Wessel Gordon
Added a few thoughts.