What awards?

[dond]

I see the EK2, HoH, RAO, and A-H MVK with War decoration.  After that a peacetime Saxon Weimar White Falcon Knights Cross? and????  The person is a COL in the 1920s with a 2 device on his shoulder straps.

[laurentius]

Dear Don,

I think the last three decorations are the Swedish Order of the Sword/Austrian Order of the Iron Crown, the Russian Order of St. Stanislaus and the one at the end is the Austrian medal for soldiers in the foreign regiments of the Austrian emporer, I have forgotten the name, I do know it is rare. This medal would also go well with the ÖMVK and the Order of the Iron Crown. Given the combination I suspect the third medal from the right to be the Austrian Order of the Crown, but it could also be the Swedish Order of the Sword, since those were relatively often awarded to German officers. Lovely painting, I hope I've been able to help you a bit.

Kind regards, laurentius

[Daniel Krause]

Its Karl Will.

He commanded 2nd Reiter Regiment in the early 30ies.

3rd Ribbon is the Hamburg Hanseatic cross.

Plain red is the Franz Joseph knight.

 

Best,

Daniel

[dond]

Thanks guys.

[Johnny R]

Hi, Don was nice enough to post this for me.

Karl Will is not a good fit. While he was in that unit, he was promoted to Oberst Lt. in 1930 and did not command the 2nd RR he also had the WB in black which was an award that surely would have been shown in the portrait. The rank on the shoulder boards is Oberst. I think the third award is the Red Eagle. The uniform and style of the painting looks to date to the mid to later 1920s. 

Edited April 4, 2020 by Johnny R

[saschaw]

On 04/04/2020 at 15:32, Johnny R said:

 I think the third award is the Red Eagle. 

I think it's not. For an active officer with pre-war RAO4, it's almost, if not totally impossible to have no XXV long service award by at least 1920. Most or many of them had that already in 1914. Our late "Rick Research" made some statistic on that matter years ago, but I cannot find the proper thread at the moment...

 

 

On 04/04/2020 at 15:32, Johnny R said:

Karl Will is not a good fit. 

Again, I doubt we'll find a better fit: In the 1914 rank list, Will is listed with the Russian RSt3 only. But given he has been in Husaren-Regiment „Kaiser Franz Josef von Österreich, König von Ungarn“ (Schleswig-Holsteinisches) Nr. 16, he probably had the Silberne Inhaber-Jubiläumsmedaille 1908 für Ausländer as well - the last ribbon in the bar. Jubilee medals remained unlisted in Prussian rank lists, unfortunately.

 

I cannot find a Franz Joseph order for him in 1914, and the Reichswehr rank list doesn't list peace time awards, so this would have to have been awarded in 1914, after the lists were printed. It's similar with the Swedish Svärdsorden, but quite some are known to be handed out to German officers soon after the war ended... and with it, Sweden's neutrality.

 

The Reichswehr rank list (1924 volume used) shows exactly the war awards worn here: HOH3X, EK1, HH and ÖM3K. Also listed but not visible is a Wounded Badge, but worn below the EK1, the picture just cuts it out. Not that unusual, in my eyes...

 

Edited July 28, 2023 by saschaw

[Glenn J]

2 hours ago, Johnny R said:

 

Karl Will is not a good fit. 

Again, I too would disagree. Here is a portrait of Herr Will. Note the absence of the wound badge in this photograph also. Fo me, this is Karl Will.

Regards

Glenn

[dedehansen]

Hi Gents,

the Will we are looking for, was later Oberst from the Kavallerie Schule,

his medals were sold 2018.

Regards

Andreas

[Glenn J]

2 hours ago, saschaw said:

I cannot find a Franz Joseph order for him in 1914

Hi Sascha,

FJO Ritter in 1914: From the Austro-Hungarian "Hof- und Staats Handbuch" 1915.

Regards

Glenn

 

[JasonA]

That is a very nice oil portrait, the artist was skilled.  

Without commenting on the ID itself - those who have contributed thus far are supremely knowledgeable on the subject - just because an award was earned doesn’t mean it was always worn, or worn for every occasion.  And besides, the portrait cuts off just below the bottom of the pocket anyway.  It could have easily been worn below that if/when worn.

Thanks for sharing the portrait!

J-

[saschaw]

On 04/04/2020 at 19:53, Glenn J said:

FJO Ritter in 1914: From the Austro-Hungarian "Hof- und Staats Handbuch" 1915.

Wow! I'm deeply impressed by the effect of combined sources.

 

I only had the rank lists to check... very cool, thanks!

 

Edited July 28, 2023 by saschaw

[Johnny R]

Thank you for all the help. With the luxury of the photo that was the basis of the portrait it becomes a bit easier. The back of the portrait has the name of a early commander of RR 2- "Heinrich Deetjen" and "Regiment Kommandeur Allenstein" written on the frame but I knew it was not him. He was promoted to Oberst Lt. with a DOR of 1.4.30. He remains in the lists until 1932 at that rank and is not in the 1935/36 lists. He have retired and been given a final promotion which is reflected in the portrait. The wound badge not being shown in my opinion is the result of the painting being based on the photo, he may not have sat for the portrait which was common. The rank in the portrait appears to be major?, he is listed in RR 13 at that rank in 1929 and then is with RR 2 in 1930. This would mean the photo dates to about 1930 and the painted portrait created at some time thereafter either with his final rank of with an earlier painting with the rank upgraded upon retirement etc.  Not sure why it is highlighted in white. Sorry about that. Thank you again. 

Edited April 4, 2020 by Johnny R

[Johnny R]

In this case the forehead effect is more related to the angle of the photo I took. This is taken at eye level without a downward angle. Carl Specht was a well known portrait painter of that period.   

Edited April 4, 2020 by Johnny R

[Bayern]

3 hours ago, Simius Rex said:

For those of you wondering why Colonel Will has a freakishly huge forehead and generally disproportionately large head in the painting, it's not because he's developed acute cerebral edema.  My art history class will now FINALLY come in handy for something.

For centuries in Europe, portrait artists were "expected" to paint their subjects from aristocratic or noble or wealthy families with VERY high foreheads, whether or not they had high foreheads.  You see, high foreheads were regarded as a sign that a person was of high and noble birth.  Peasants and proletarians on the other hand were supposed to have low foreheads, kind of like neanderthals.  The higher the forehead... the more noble a person was supposed to be.

If you google the old portrait paintings of european monarchs and aristocrats and wealthy landowners, you will see what I am talking about.  One of the most ridiculously high foreheads can be seen on the portrait of Ferdinand I of Austria.  That artist made Ferdinand look like the Martian ambasador from the film "Mars Attacks."  Simi.  

 

Simius , Ferdinand I of Austria  suffered Hidrocephalia in his childhood and these dolence leaves the patient with a desproportionate height of the skull