Unknown Breast Star of Vizeadmiral Maximilian Rogge

[Kriegsmarine Admiral]

What is the Breast Star he is wearing below the Großherzoglich Oldenburgisches Friedrich August-Kreuz 1. Klasse?

There is nothing in the Rangliste.

Thanks

[laurentius]

An Ottoman award I believe, I'm terrible with the names though.

[Kriegsmarine Admiral]

9 minutes ago, laurentius said:

An Ottoman award I believe, I'm terrible with the names though.

I doubt it's an Ottoman award. The tips of the Breast Star don't look like either the Medjidije or Osmaniye Order Breast Star.

Edited October 21, 2020 by Kriegsmarine Admiral

[demir]

On 21/10/2020 at 23:25, Kriegsmarine Admiral said:

I doubt it's an Ottoman award. The tips of the Breast Star don't look like either the Medjidije or Osmaniye Order Breast Star.

I totally agree with you. Arms on the right is different than the one on the left . There must be a similer space between the arms on the right. So not Osmanie or Medjidie.

[GdC26]

Could it be the Commanders cross of the Norwegian St. Olaforden (an order that from memory was ocasionally bestowed on German naval officers)? Hannoverian commander crosses (Guelphic cross and Ernst August Orden) have a similar shape, but since hte kingdom of Hannover was abolished in 1866 after Hannover picked the wrong side in hte Austro-Prussian war that seems less likely.  The Belgian aAlber order commanders cross star has a similar shape, and so does the English Guelphic order commanders grade star . 

But it is very hard to say what shape the star actually has, as part of it may or may not be obscured by the FA cross.

 

Kind regards, 

Sandro

[Kriegsmarine Admiral]

The Norwegian Order of St. Olaf was usually awarded to German Admirals before the outbreak of WW1. I don't think that's the breast star Rogge is wearing. Other orders you mention are even more less likely.

I think we won't be able to determine what the breast star is without seeing the full photo of the star. Unfortunately...

Anyways, thank you to everyone for their help regarding this.

Edited October 25, 2020 by Kriegsmarine Admiral

[GdC26]

I think you are probably correct.

I checked the 1914 and 1918 Ranglisten, but saw no match (he had the Russian St. Stanislaw 2nd class which had or could be awarded with star, but since the pic is late war/post WWI that seems unlikely.

I see on your Facebook page he had the Hohenzollern Hausorden Komtur with swords - that order could be awarded with star, too, but that star was worn on the right breast (unusual for German imperial orders, but there you are). Do your sources say whether he was awarded the star as well? 

And are you sure the pic is not a composite, with the orders painted in? The medal bar seems to be at a strange angle compared to the Komturkreuze and the FA cross underneath, and the latter seem to be way to high on hte tunic. 

Kind regards, 

Sandro

Edited October 25, 2020 by GdC26

[Kriegsmarine Admiral]

 

1 hour ago, GdC26 said:

I checked the 1914 and 1918 Ranglisten, but saw no match (he had the Russian St. Stanislaw 2nd class which had or could be awarded with star, but since the pic is late war/post WWI that seems unlikely.

If he had the Star of the St. Stanislaus Order, the Rangliste would say "RSt2mSt". Like you say, it's very unlikely (I would dare say even impossible) he was awarded the Star during WW1.

1 hour ago, GdC26 said:

Do your sources say whether he was awarded the star as well?

My source for the Hohenzollern Hausorden Komtur with swords is the Seeoffiziere Gesamtliste. You can also see it on the photo, top medal around the neck. There is no indication he also had the Star of this order, and I doubt that's the Star visible on the photo.

1 hour ago, GdC26 said:

And are you sure the pic is not a composite, with the orders painted in?

I am 100% sure it's a photo and not a composite. Sure, the medals mounted look a little odd, but I guess that was his personal preference. By the way, the photo was for sure taken after WW1, because you can see he mounted two un-official veteran organization's medals.

The 5th medal is the War Commemorative Medal 1914/1918 of the Kyffhäuser Union and the 6th medal is the Commemorative Medal of the Union of German Naval Veterans Associations.

[Deutschritter]

Gentlemen, I am not an expert, far from it, BUT as far as I have read, the Sankt-Stanislaus-Orden, 2nd class was only awarded to foreigners and always with the star. In the rangliste this would be listed as RSt2 without "mSt" because the star is not extra but a part of the award?! Or maybe in one period listed as RSt2mSt and later (after 1910) only as RSt2? I realize, my reply is not really helping ...

Does anyone have a picture of Admiral Friedrich Ludwig Wilhelm Carl Borckenhagen?

Thanks!

[Kriegsmarine Admiral]

10 minutes ago, Deutschritter said:

Gentlemen, I am not an expert, far from it, BUT as far as I have read, the Sankt-Stanislaus-Orden, 2nd class was only awarded to foreigners and always with the star. In the rangliste this would be listed as RSt2 without "mSt" because the star is not extra but a part of the award?! Or maybe in one period listed as RSt2mSt and later (after 1910) only as RSt2? I realize, my reply is not really helping ...

Does anyone have a picture of Admiral Friedrich Ludwig Wilhelm Carl Borckenhagen?

Thanks!

Since the photo was taken post-WW1 the Breast Star can't be the Sankt-Stanislaus-Orden 2nd Class. Also, the 2nd Class was awarded either without the Star or with the Star. The Rangliste always makes this distinction.

Here is a photo of Borckenhagen.

[Deutschritter]

Thanks for clearing this up, Kriegsmarine Admiral, and a big thanks for this really nice picture. Here are the decorations I have for Borckenhagen, do you have any more?

Greetings,

Deutschritter

Roter Adlerorden, IV. Klasse

Preußisches Dienstauszeichnungskreuz, 1893

Königlich Norwegischer Orden des heiligen Olaf, Ritterkreuz I. Klasse (NO3a)

Preußischer Kronenorden, III. Klasse

Zentenarmedaille, 1897

Hausorden vom Weißen Falken, Komturkreuz (GSF2)

Roter Adlerorden, III. Klasse mit der Schleife

... später die Krone zur III. Klasse erhalten

Sankt-Stanislaus-Orden, II. Klasse (RSt2)

... später den Stern zur II. Klasse erhalten (RSt2mSt)

Militär-Orden San Bento d’Aviz, Kommandeurkreuz (PBd’A1/PB2b)

Preußischer Kronenorden, II. Klasse mit Stern (Deutscher Ordens-Almanach 1908/1909, S. 155)

Roter Adlerorden, II. Klasse mit Eichenlaub und Stern

Königlich Norwegischer Orden des heiligen Olaf, Kommandeurkreuz (NO2b)

Sankt-Annen-Orden, II. Klasse (RA2)

Preußischer Kronenorden, I. Klasse

Edited November 6, 2020 by Deutschritter

[Kriegsmarine Admiral]

10 hours ago, Deutschritter said:

Thanks for clearing this up, Kriegsmarine Admiral, and a big thanks for this really nice picture. Here are the decorations I have for Borckenhagen, do you have any more?

No problem.

Regarding his awards. I can add:

- Königlich Norwegischer Orden des heiligen Olaf, Kommandeurkreuz 2. Klasse

- China-Denkmünze in Bronze

- Kaiserlich Russische China-Denkmünze in Silber

The rest of your list is correct.

[Deutschritter]

Thanks so much, Kriegsmarine Admiral, I did not know, that German soldiers were awarded the Russian China-Denkmünze ... great info! Here is what I have on Albrecht Bernhard Maximilian „Max“ Rogge, of course without the breast star (maybe Herzoglich Sachsen-Ernestinischer Hausorden, which was awarded until 1936?):

Zentenarmedaille, 1897

Roter Adlerorden, IV. Klasse mit der Krone

Sankt-Stanislaus-Orden, II. Klasse (RSt2)

Preußisches Dienstauszeichnungskreuz

Preußischer Kronenorden, III. Klasse

Roter Adlerorden, III. Klasse mit der Schleife

Kolonial-Denkmünze mit der Spange „Deutsch-Ostafrika 1889/90“

Preußischer Kronenorden, II. Klasse am 12. Januar 1913

Eisernes Kreuz (1914), II. und I. Klasse

Bremisches Hanseatenkreuz

Hamburgisches Hanseatenkreuz

Friedrich-August-Kreuz, II. und I. Klasse (OFA1)

Roter Adlerorden, II. Klasse mit Eichenlaub und Schwertern am 2. April 1917

Königlicher Hausorden von Hohenzollern, Komturkreuz mit Schwertern am 30. April 1918

Kyffhäuser-Denkmünze für 1914/18

Medaille „Für Tapferkeit im Weltkrieg 1914/18“ des Bundes Deutscher Marine-Vereine (BDMV)

Ehrenkreuz für Frontkämpfer

[Kriegsmarine Admiral]

14 hours ago, Deutschritter said:

of course without the breast star (maybe Herzoglich Sachsen-Ernestinischer Hausorden, which was awarded until 1936?)

I'm afraid that, without seeing the full photo of the breast star, we can only guess what it is. Herzoglich Sachsen-Ernestinischer Hausorden is a good guess, but it could also be the Großherzoglich Oldenburgischen Haus- und Verdienstorden des Herzogs Peter Friedrich Ludwig, for example.

Your list of decorations is correct. I wonder, where did you find the information about his awards? I have a Facebook page called "German Admirals 1849-1945" where I posted his list of awards (although in English). Did you perhaps use that info? Because I identified the Kyffhäuser-Denkmünze für 1914/18 and the Medaille „Für Tapferkeit im Weltkrieg 1914/18“ des Bundes Deutscher Marine-Vereine from his medal bar. Since these are un-official awards, you wouldn't find them listed anyhwere in the Rangliste.

Regards

[BlackcowboyBS]

On 24/10/2020 at 21:08, GdC26 said:

Could it be the Commanders cross of the Norwegian St. Olaforden (an order that from memory was ocasionally bestowed on German naval officers)? Hannoverian commander crosses (Guelphic cross and Ernst August Orden) have a similar shape, but since hte kingdom of Hannover was abolished in 1866 after Hannover picked the wrong side in hte Austro-Prussian war that seems less likely.  The Belgian aAlber order commanders cross star has a similar shape, and so does the English Guelphic order commanders grade star . 

But it is very hard to say what shape the star actually has, as part of it may or may not be obscured by the FA cross.

 

Kind regards, 

Sandro

 

 

 

Hi Sando,

I am 100 percent sure, that he is not wearing the breast star of the Hannovarian Gelphic Order! Even if I truley admire the commanders breaststar that you have posted. 

 

[GdC26]

4 hours ago, BlackcowboyBS said:

Hi Sando,

I am 100 percent sure, that he is not wearing the breast star of the Hannovarian Gelphic Order! Even if I truley admire the commanders breaststar that you have posted. 

Hi Stephan, 

I think you’re right. Problem is that even the shape of the star is hard to make out definitively, because it is partially obscured by the Oldenburg FA cross.

 

[Deutschritter]

Hello, Kriegsmarine Admiral! I mostly get decorations from the Ranglisten, although only up to 1914 (online), sometimes it takes many hours. As for the unofficiall two I am quite sure they are from your list, although I did not see them on Facebook ... maybe Forum Axis History? Well, anyway, great job ... I admire your love for details!

Many Greetings,

Deutschritter