Saxon Lippe Bar Opinion

[LuckySlevin]

Hi Gentlemen, 

I will be very grateful to know you opinion on the authenticity of the below bar, currently sold on ebay:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The medals seem fine to me. 

The ribbons also seem to be of an old type. 

However the mounting of the ribbons (the fact that they seem to be mounted very handy) and the fact that ribbons look quite new give doubts. 

 

What do you think ? 

 

Thank you

Lucky

 

[Deruelle]

Hi Lucky

 

to be honest, I don't like how it is mount on the back. Even if the medals are genuine, I won't buy it

 

Christophe

[David M]

What about the combination? Nothing prussian, isnt that a tad unusual?

[Deruelle]

Hi David,

There is no problem with the combo. It is not a man who served in the trenches. Here it is probably a man who worked behind a desk.

 

Christophe

[VtwinVince]

I saw this one, reverse cloth and pin are a bit weird but on balance looks genuine.

[lew]

Looks ok to me. The ribbon folding and coiled spring hinge are typical Scharffenberg style. I wouldn't mind the reversed pin setup, maybe a frackspange hardware is used ?

 

 

Another wonderful example from Wild Card collection

Edited May 31, 2021 by lew

[laurentius]

I don't think Scharffenberg made this piece, although it does share some characteristics. Given Scharffenberg's location (Dresden, capital of the Kingdom of Saxony) and the decorations of this medalbar I think it might have been a home job. Perhaps as @Simius Rex mentioned done by the half-blind grandmother of a soldier who got the hardware for the medalbar from the same place as Scharffenberg. Made Scharffenberg even sold hardware to make your own medalbars. 

 

It is sometimes hard to imagine when wandering this great forum, but most bars were made in an okay-quality by housewifes, mothers or sowing-savvy soldiers who did it themselves. Having your medals mounted would usually start at prices of half a mark, going up per decoration (logical, since the base plate needs to be larger and more ribbon is used). This is the type of spare cash most veterans did not have after the war, which is why most medalbars are in a less-than-fortune state or why some medals were never mounted at all. The more you spend on your medalbar, the better it is preserved. It is no wonder most minty medalbars have a tag from one the top jewellers, these ones were made to last. A good investment which sadly most couldn't afford.

 

Kind regards, Laurentius

[lew]

Haven't thought about that, it makes a lot of sense. Thanks for the discussion ?

[Deruelle]

52 minutes ago, lew said:

Haven't thought about that, it makes a lot of sense. Thanks for the discussion ?

Hi, it is possible for you to show us your nice group of Saxon Observer ? Thanks. Is there a name on it ?

Christophe

[Valter]

I can't agree completely with laurentius. Majority of bars we see are expert-made by tailors, and home-made budget bars are usualy cruder than this one - with safety pins, cardboard instead of metal plate etc. The one who didn't have money for expert-made bar, usually won't have money for buying components, i.e. metal backing, and he would use the ribbons he got awarded plus some readily-availabe home supplies. This one looks in the middle - professional components (ribbons, metal backing), yet lacking the craftsmanship of the professional tailor. It is possible it is home made, but I have doubts. Very new look, without any traces of wear also raises some doubts. If a veteran would made a bar at home, he would made it for wearing, so at least some patina, fading etc. would be expected.

[laurentius]

1 hour ago, Valter said:

Majority of bars we see are expert-made by tailors, and home-made budget bars are usualy cruder than this one

I disagree here, it is not true that the majority of bars is tailor-made in my opinion. Nor do homemade medalbars have to be made with cardboard and safetypins. The quality of these homemade bars is on a certain scale or spectrum, from terribly-made to well-made.

1 hour ago, Valter said:

The one who didn't have money for expert-made bar, usually won't have money for buying components, i.e. metal backing, and he would use the ribbons he got awarded plus some readily-availabe home supplies.

I also disagree here. Now as it was then a large part of the cost was the pay for the seamstress. A small plate which could be ready bought ( some of the bigger dealers have these for sale sometimes, although they are only bought by people who make medalbars, either for historical purposes or to scam people). These could be bought for a fraction of the price of a jeweller-made medalbar. Together with the ribbon they already had (most awards came with 20 cm of ribbon which would suffice) and some thread this allowed for a medalbar to be made.

 

1 hour ago, Valter said:

Very new look, without any traces of wear also raises some doubts. If a veteran would made a bar at home, he would made it for wearing, so at least some patina, fading etc. would be expected.

Yes, he would have made it for wearing, which doesn't mean he did wear it. Most medalbars where worn only sporadically, being left in the cupboard or on the mantle for the rest of the time. Patina, just like fading comes from wearing, it does not magically appear. I believe this medalbar to be good. It doesn't look like new, one can see where the ribbon has frayed over time (especially at the top corners). On the whole it is in good, but not new condition.

 

Would I buy this bar? No, I wouldn't. Not because it is bad, but because it wouldn't fit in my collection. I don't know who got it on Ebay but rest assured, it was one of the few good ones.

 

Kind regards, Laurentius

[Claudius]

On 28/05/2021 at 18:15, VtwinVince said:

I saw this one, reverse cloth and pin are a bit weird but on balance looks genuine.

 

For a non-Frack bar, isn't the pin in wrong direction?

[lew]

On 31/05/2021 at 18:58, Deruelle said:

Hi, it is possible for you to show us your nice group of Saxon Observer ? Thanks. Is there a name on it ?

Christophe

 

No name, the photo doesn't belong to it. It came with this heavy case made by G.A. Scharffenberg.

 

 

[Deruelle]

Hi,

Only four men (in my database) received the SH3, SA3bX EK2

 

Only one has the same combo, and three others have received EK1

 

only EK2 :

- Lt d.R. Georg Dietrich (1895-1917)

 

with EK1

- Lt d.R. Artur Emil Bauer (1895 - ??)

- Lt Jakob von Hartsen (1891-1916)

- Lt Egbert Kühn (1887 - 1915).

 

congrats. You have a very nice group. Thanks for sharing it with us

 

Christophe

 

[laurentius]

4 hours ago, Claudius said:

For a non-Frack bar, isn't the pin in wrong direction?

Yes, but that happened more often. Both home-made and professional bars sometimes show mistakes, either in construction, material or precedence.

 

Kind regards, Laurentius

[lew]

28 minutes ago, Deruelle said:

Only one has the same combo, and three others have received EK1

 

I don't know if there was an EK1 in the group at some point. Anyway thanks a lot for the information ?

[Deruelle]

Your group will be nice with the ribbon bar and the shoulderboards !

 

Christophe

 

 

[VtwinVince]

Wow, that is a fantastic Scharffenberg ensemble, could you show us the reverse of the beobachterabzeichen?

[lew]

6 hours ago, VtwinVince said:

Wow, that is a fantastic Scharffenberg ensemble, could you show us the reverse of the beobachterabzeichen?

 

I don't know much about these badges, but here you go.

 

 

[Valter]

Laurentius, you have a point, and you are sure more experienced than me, so I have to agree with you. Maybe I'm too suspicious to anything unusual due to many fake bars.

[VtwinVince]

Thanks Lew, a superb example. Would love to have that set in my aviation collection.

[lew]

4 hours ago, VtwinVince said:

Would love to have that set in my aviation collection.

 

Aviation collection? that sounds very interesting ? do yo mind to show them?