Kriegsmarine Admiral Posted February 26 Author Share Posted February 26 (edited) Or to be more precise. What were the official names of the classes for both orders until 1945? Because that's when the Kriegsmarine admirals were awarded these two orders. Edited February 26 by Kriegsmarine Admiral Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohanH Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 When looking in the original award roll the classes are as following: Kommendörer med stora korset av Kungliga Svärdsorden (Commander with the grand cross of the Royal order of the Sword) Riddare med stora korset av Kungliga Svärdsorden, första klassen (Knight with the grand cross of ......, 1st class) Riddare med stora korset av Kungliga Svärdsorden, andra klassen (Knight with the grand cross of ......, 2nd class) Not in the roll since it wasn´t awarded but it theoretically existed. Kommendörer av Kungliga Svärdsorden, första klassen (Commander of the......, 1st class) Kommendörer av Kungliga Svärdsorden, andra klassen (Commander of the ......, 2nd class) Riddare av Kungliga Svärdsorden, första klassen (Knight of the ....., 1st class) Riddare av Kungliga Svärdsorden, andra klassen (Knight of the ....., 2nd class) But in the statecalendar or other publications they are listed as KSO1kl (Commander 1st class) or just KSO (commander 2nd class). The same is valid for both the Order of Vasa and Order of the North Star (except for the Riddare med Stora korset, that was a special grade of the Order of the Sword). Could it be that they wrote out all the classes in the roll to minimize the risk of errors? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kriegsmarine Admiral Posted February 26 Author Share Posted February 26 2 hours ago, JohanH said: Could it be that they wrote out all the classes in the roll to minimize the risk of errors? I have no idea. It's possible. But I would think they would use the official names for the classes in the award rolls? What about award documents? Do you have some examples for the Commander 2nd Class and Knight 2nd Class? I think the actual award documents should have the most accurate information. I have this example for Hans Kolbe's Order of Vasa (Knight 2nd Class). It says Wasa Orden andra Klassen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohanH Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 32 minutes ago, Kriegsmarine Admiral said: I have no idea. It's possible. But I would think they would use the official names for the classes in the award rolls? What about award documents? Do you have some examples for the Commander 2nd Class and Knight 2nd Class? I think the actual award documents should have the most accurate information. I have this example for Hans Kolbe's Order of Vasa (Knight 2nd Class). It says Wasa Orden andra Klassen? I have just a few award documents for commander classes and none for knight 2nd class. Vasaorder: Kommendör andra klass 1888 Kommendör andra klass 1902 North star order: Kommendör första klass 1939 Kommendör andra klass 1908 Your document is very nice! Let me know if you ever decide to sell it. And yes, it does say knight 2nd class, one of 1470 awarded... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kriegsmarine Admiral Posted February 26 Author Share Posted February 26 3 hours ago, JohanH said: Your document is very nice! Let me know if you ever decide to sell it. Sorry, I do not own this document. The relative of admiral Kolbe sent me a scan of this document a few years ago. Taking into consideration the names of the classes in the award rolls and the few examples of award documents you presented here, I would say the official names of the classes of the Order of the Sword and Order of Vasa awarded to Kriegsmarine admirals are the following: Grand Cross Commander 1st Class Commander 2nd Class Knight 1st Class Knight 2nd Class Would you agree? Even if some websites say the official names do not contain the part "2nd Class". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kriegsmarine Admiral Posted February 27 Author Share Posted February 27 (edited) Here is also the information from Borna Barac: Reference Catalogue Orders, Medals and Decorations of the World. It matches the names of the classes in the award rolls. It seems that some kind of change happened in 1975. Would you know anything about that? Perhaps the names of the classes were changed in that year? The Commander classes of the Order of Vasa are noted as only "Commander" and "Commander breast star". But I guess this is a mistake, because your award documents confirm the part "1st class" and "2nd class" were in the official name. Edited February 27 by Kriegsmarine Admiral Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohanH Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 In 1975 the Swedish orders became dormant. I guess the Order chancellery should have the correct names. But I personally like to call it 2nd class just to be sure there are no mix up about what class is meant. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kriegsmarine Admiral Posted February 27 Author Share Posted February 27 3 minutes ago, JohanH said: I guess the Order chancellery should have the correct names. I'm not really convinced, after seeing so many sources give different information. Perhaps today these are the official names, but in the first half of the 20th century they were not called that. 4 minutes ago, JohanH said: But I personally like to call it 2nd class just to be sure there are no mix up about what class is meant. I agree. I will also keep the part "2nd class" for the Commander and Knight of the Swedish orders. For my purposes (the Swedish awards to Kriegsmarine admirals), I will trust the period sources of the time (award rolls, state calendars and award documents). Thank you very much for your help once again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohanH Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 I have looked in "När och hur böra ordnar bäras" from 1929 and also in the 1943 version and they both describe the classes are commander 1st class / 2nd class and knight 1st class / 2nd class. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kriegsmarine Admiral Posted February 27 Author Share Posted February 27 1 hour ago, JohanH said: I have looked in "När och hur böra ordnar bäras" from 1929 and also in the 1943 version and they both describe the classes are commander 1st class / 2nd class and knight 1st class / 2nd class. Great, thanks! There should be no doubt then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kriegsmarine Admiral Posted March 2 Author Share Posted March 2 @FRE_A_K For Karl-Jesko von Puttkamer I have the following: - Finnish Order of the Cross of Liberty 2nd Class with Oak Leaves and Swords (11 June 1942) Can you perhaps confirm the class, additions (Oak Leaves and Swords) and the award date? Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FRE_A_K Posted March 2 Share Posted March 2 Class and award date are correct. Kapitän zur See. I try to answer your question you tomorrow. I've been busy. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kriegsmarine Admiral Posted March 2 Author Share Posted March 2 3 minutes ago, FRE_A_K said: Class and award date are correct. Kapitän zur See. Thank you! 3 minutes ago, FRE_A_K said: I try to answer your question you tomorrow. I've been busy. No problem, there is no hurry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohanH Posted March 2 Share Posted March 2 37 minutes ago, Kriegsmarine Admiral said: @FRE_A_K For Karl-Jesko von Puttkamer I have the following: - Finnish Order of the Cross of Liberty 2nd Class with Oak Leaves and Swords (11 June 1942) Can you perhaps confirm the class, additions (Oak Leaves and Swords) and the award date? Thanks! He got the oakleaves as can be seen below. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kriegsmarine Admiral Posted March 2 Author Share Posted March 2 25 minutes ago, JohanH said: He got the oakleaves as can be seen below. Thank you Johan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FRE_A_K Posted March 2 Share Posted March 2 Unfortunately, we do not know why Mr. Puttkamer was awarded. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kriegsmarine Admiral Posted March 4 Author Share Posted March 4 This might be of interest. The award document of the Commander's Cross 1st Class of the Order of the White Rose of Finland to Wilhelm Canaris. The document is from the Bundesarchiv. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kriegsmarine Admiral Posted March 19 Author Share Posted March 19 (edited) @JohanH Hello Johan, Back in 2022 you said that Werner Steffan was awarded the Commander's Cross 1st Class of the Royal Swedish Order of the Sword on 30 October 1936. However, his Personalakte reveals different information (please see the document below) : - Commander's Cross 2nd Class of the Royal Swedish Order of the Sword on 25 November 1936 (this date should be the German approval date) - Star to the Commander's Cross of the Royal Swedish Order of the Sword (i.e. the Commander's Cross 1st Class) sometime in 1939 or 1940. Could you please double check the award rolls and see if Steffan was actually awarded the 2nd Class on 30 October 1936 and then the 1st Class sometime in 1939 or 1940? Thanks! Edited March 19 by Kriegsmarine Admiral Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deutschritter Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 Maybe JohanH could find the NN1 date for Admiral z. D. Otto von Diederichs? Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohanH Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 6 hours ago, Kriegsmarine Admiral said: @JohanH Hello Johan, Back in 2022 you said that Werner Steffan was awarded the Commander's Cross 1st Class of the Royal Swedish Order of the Sword on 30 October 1936. However, his Personalakte reveals different information (please see the document below) : - Commander's Cross 2nd Class of the Royal Swedish Order of the Sword on 25 November 1936 (this date should be the German approval date) - Star to the Commander's Cross of the Royal Swedish Order of the Sword (i.e. the Commander's Cross 1st Class) sometime in 1939 or 1940. Could you please double check the award rolls and see if Steffan was actually awarded the 2nd Class on 30 October 1936 and then the 1st Class sometime in 1939 or 1940? Thanks! 2nd class on 1936-10-30 1st class on 1940-04-09 2 minutes ago, Deutschritter said: Maybe JohanH could find the NN1 date for Admiral z. D. Otto von Diederichs? Thanks! I'm sorry but I have no information about that order, Order of Orange-Nassau, Grand Cross (NN1). I'm mostly interested in Swedish and Finnish medals and orders. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kriegsmarine Admiral Posted March 19 Author Share Posted March 19 16 minutes ago, JohanH said: 1st class on 1940-04-09 Thank you Johan! The date for the 1st class is 9 April 1940, correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohanH Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 5 minutes ago, Kriegsmarine Admiral said: Thank you Johan! The date for the 1st class is 9 April 1940, correct? Yes. that is correct. And the 2nd class is October 30th. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herman Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 4 hours ago, Deutschritter said: Maybe JohanH could find the NN1 date for Admiral z. D. Otto von Diederichs? Thanks! No digital award card is found at the Chancerry of Dutch Orders. regards Herman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deutschritter Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 1 hour ago, Herman said: No digital award card is found at the Chancerry of Dutch Orders. regards Herman Thank you, Herman!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kriegsmarine Admiral Posted March 20 Author Share Posted March 20 Hello, Is 15 April 1944 the correct award date for Werner Stichling's Finnish Order of the Cross of Liberty 1st Class with Swords? Because his Personalakte has the award date 19 May 1944. This could be the German approval date. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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