Austro-Hungarian Engraved Aircrew Badge of Anton Sergeyvevich Popov

[RedNoseScout]

Santo.  Ur dissent is noted. Ur r enhancing by ur debate the value of this badge.  ? In context of only 1917-18 - u r right. But the evidence leads elsewhere for which I duly will note ur thoughts in the AH volume and why they are unsupported by the evidence.  U educate by ur objection for which I am grateful.   Where I see differently bc of u, i will give more credit.  Because u r  fearless in ur self expression.  Amd that takes heart.  And that I deeply admire.  

[tifes]

Gentlemen,

 

 just couple of words and we can move on, because this "mystery" can´t be solved as we do not have any required info.

Popov was a globetrotter, interested in all sorts of things, mountaineering, polar expeditions, and sometime in 1908 he took part in the construction of an airship that was to fly to the North Pole. It never came to life. He then worked as a aircraft mechanic in Paris. He flew solo for the first time in December 1908, crashed, then tried again and obtained his aviation license in March 1910.

Frankly from my personal (that I would like to underline) perspective of AH collector: The badge is an old original (and not in the best condition, to be honest) with dedication which has anything to do with k.u.k. Luftfahrtruppen, of the strange origin which can´t be explained. Popov served as a steersman on a airship of the French Air Force during WWI. Not exactly a pilot, he simply spun the rudder on the airship. No pilot's test was required for that. Honestly, no pilot (German, Austro-Hungarian and probably not even Allied) knew of his existence, he flew briefly and not very successfully before 1914 for 6 months (December 1909 till May 1910) . For the Russian Air Force, however, he is regarded as a pioneer (..because he flew). It is certain that the dedication (and I agree that it has all elements to qualify as an old one, not a modern fake) could only have been made sometime after WW1, i.e. in 1919-1929 period (until Popov's death) and nobody knows why. There might many possibilities, without any connection to AH aviation like some of his old friends from Russia living in exile in Vienna (Vienna was full of White Russian refugees after Bolshevik revolution) bought this badge (plenty of them after WW1 available), had dedication made and gave it to Popov as a gift when visiting him in Cannes, knowing that his old pale used to be a pilot.

In any case I would be happy if we have an opportunity to further discuss other AH Air Force pilot badges.

A few more sentences on the information sources, which play key role, in my honest opinion. I very strongly recommend the small but essential works of Jörg C. Steiner, specifically his two tiny publications (in German): „Das Feldpilotenabzeichen“ and „Das Luftfahrerabzeichen“ from 1992/1993 based on his study of particular kuk circular notes, so 10 years prior to the publication mentioned by RedNoseScout from Michael M. Edelstein „Wings of Grace and Valor  it was on K.u.K. Aviation Badges“ from 2004. I do not have this publication but I tried to google it with partial success. There is a screen of page 60 which talks about Badge for observers of seaplanes of k.u.k. Navy (1918). Long story short. Info provided there is not correct and badge displayed on this page is just copy from 1970s. I am not sure that I would consider this publication as some kind of Holy Grail...  

Best,

t.

[RedNoseScout]

Yes. Great point. That’s a big topic in my book. The text books make mistakes.  More than just a few though they serve greatly.   All of them.  That’s why u need them all to compare and contrast.  Michael was way ahead of his time and it must be kept in context.    Panda did not upgrade his evaluation in his second volume.  This is unfortunate. New data and information is out there.   The volumes I am preparing are very limited in their broad scope.  Michael I admire most for his spirit in an age of uncertainty.   U r right to point this out in the context of his time.  U r in ways a historian and an honest one.    I am ur equal in curiosity.  Like I said.  My enthusiasm is self evident.  I am not perfect.   Hardly.  But his book is a solid piece of research and I recommend it highly as I am sure u do w appropriate caveats.  Thank u for ur contribution.  Why tlfes?

Edited April 12, 2022 by RedNoseScout

[GdC26]

Ok, so this is now a glorified book-ad. Indeed, time to move on as Tomas said.
 

Personally, as a skeptic, I though Tomas “first flight in December 1908” point might capture the attention of tho faithful, and give them something to examine further, but I see I’m wrong on that, and we’re now in “buy my book and all will be revealed” land. ?
 

Given the quality of input provided so far, and it’s speculative nature, I’ll probably pass on that (my loss, I know). However, do feel free to wake me up if there is more info on the provenance or history of the badge.
 

Kind regards,

Sandro

[GdC26]

6 hours ago, Luftmensch said:

 

I'm impressed with your spelling ability.  You said:

 

"...concluding that the engraving is original seems a stretch. And this wouldn’t be the first original item that has been embellished to enhance its market value."
 

Leaving poor Occam out of it, I ask that you please show us another original Luftfahrerabz. embellished to enhance its market value.  

 

If you can't, to which original items are you referring that you think are germane to this discussion?

 

If you can't show us these, then why is "concluding that the engraving is original...a stretch"?   On what do you base your opinion?

 

Poor Occam again?   Did he collect Austrian badges?

 

And in the absence of anything but your open-minded negative bias, I think the very existence of this fascinating badge tips the scales. 

 

 

Here’s a shocker: I may not be able to show you a second example of the Shroud of Turin, yet many scientists believe, on the evidence available, that the one example that is known is a medieval forgery. Only the faithful think differently.

 

Hyperbole aside, your approach to scientific debate is fundamentally flawed. There are many pieces on the market that have been spiced up through engravings and by other means. That goes for Austrian decorations as well (just have a look at the many dedicated Austrian, English, Italian etc. medals on the market, for example, some legit, some doubtful, many hand engraved). You don’t recognize that practice, I fear for your collection.

 

Anyway, it is clear you’re not a man of your word - I did what you asked (acknowledge that I don’t know) and you’re not impressed …. ?

 

As said, time to move on. If you’re the current or past  owner of this badge (which given your attitude, strikes me as distinctly possible): I hope you enjoy it, and can forgive those of lesser faith.

 

Kind regards,

Sandro

Edited April 12, 2022 by GdC26

[Elmar Lang]

Quote

RedNoseScout: The current reference books were not even written except maybe Michael M. Edelstein brilliant treatise called Wings of Grace and Valor  it was on K.u.K. Aviation Badges (2004).  One of the best ever if not the best on the subject. 

 

But now:

 

Quote

again, RedNoseScout: The text books make mistakes.  More than just a few though they serve greatly.   All of them.  That’s why u need them all to compare and contrast.  Michael was way ahead of his time and it must be kept in context.

 

Well... again forgetting the invaluable and technically documented, complete books, written by Jörg Steiner, way earlier than Mr. Edelstein's treatise. I think that perhaps some collectors still remember him while he was working about his book.

 

Of course, I wish you all the best with the huge work you're preparing, about any aspect of the early aviation and its heroes.

 

I would like to suggest, that writing a technical book needs that facts should be supported by documents and evidence.

 

all the best,

 

Enzo (E.L.)

[Luftmensch]

 

The Shroud of Turin?  You're keeping an open mind?  You don't know?   It's a stretch?   I'm simply fascinated  by the subtle and shifting ways you express your objectivity, Sandro.

 

"...he simply spun the rudder on the airship. No pilot's test was required for that."

 

 Airship steersmen had to train and qualify for their rating.  The French had an airship badge for this.  Question--what Austrian badge or distinctive did a steersman/observer on an airship qualify to wear?

 

The Luftfahrerabz.?

 

 

 

Edited April 12, 2022 by Luftmensch

[RedNoseScout]

Enzio:

 

Again I am very grateful.   This must be him. 

 

Jörg Christian Steiner

 

How delightfully useful is ur input!  He has many attractive books.   Which do u would recommend?   U r expanding my reach for understanding.  Yes ur words r right about evidence to support facts. ? I like also that u ask questions.  U r a good teacher.  And a kind one.    

[GdC26]

2 hours ago, Luftmensch said:

 

The Shroud of Turin?  You're keeping an open mind?  You don't know?   It's a stretch?   I'm simply fascinated  by the subtle and shifting ways you express your objectivity, Sandro.

 

 

 

 

 

I know, reading and logical reasoning are arts not mastered by all.

Still, that is what this forum is all about - drawing conclusions on the basis of confirmed facts and logic, whilst keeping an open mind.

It's a juggle, but you perhaps you can try it some time.

 

It seems this threat has run its course (RedNoseScout and you have not contributed a single relevant fact for a while now), but it will be my pleasure to engage again when you have anything to contribute beyond "they don't engarave like they used to".

 

Oh, on logical though, regarding your last point in response to Tomas' observations - I'm confused, so your contention is that airship steersmen in French service in WWI were given the Austrian Luftfahrerabzeichen?  And all of that relates to 1908 how? The mind boggles ....

 

Kind regards as always,

 Sandro 

Edited April 12, 2022 by GdC26

[Luftmensch]

No, Sandro, but maybe an  Austrian Luftschiffer had a postwar association with a  French airshipper, who also happened to be a white Russian. 

 

I have insignia in my collection from Luftschiffer Vereine that had contact with friends and former enemies who were also airshippers.  They visited and socialised--yes, socialised with an "s"--drank much beer and occasionally exchanged gifts.

 

As for 1908...we may never be able to satisfy your desire to tie all data points into a neat little package!

 

 

Edited April 12, 2022 by Luftmensch

[VtwinVince]

Hmmm, very interesting discussion. My knowledge of K.u.K badges is fairly weak, and I tend to avoid making any pronouncements due to the level of fakery. However, I'm going with my original feeling about this one, that the engraving is period and not some shambolic faker's attempt at enhancing value. Why this curious engraving is on this particular badge is certainly mysterious, but should not be dismissed outright.

[GdC26]

2 hours ago, Luftmensch said:

No, Sandro, but maybe an  Austrian Luftschiffer had a postwar association with a  French airshipper, who also happened to be a white Russian. 

 

I have insignia in my collection from Luftschiffer Vereine that had contact with friends and former enemies who were also airshippers.  They visited and socialised--yes, socialised with an "s"--drank much beer and occasionally exchanged gifts.

 

As for 1908...we may never be able to satisfy your desire to tie all data points into a neat little package!

 

 

"Maybe" .....?  And "we may never be able to .... tie all data points" ? Thanks for proving my point about the speculative nature of your assertions on this particular badge better than I ever could, dear Luftmensch. The known facts, however, are as stated earlier: 

 

 

"1) the Luftfaherabzeichen is original;

 

2) The engraving is done by hand."

 

 

The rest, as we all seem to acknowledge, is speculation and belief, at least on the info before us.

 

I drew the same conclusion several posts ago, so there we are: full circle ....

 

Kind regards, 

 Sandro

 

Ps- had you actually read any of Tomas' posts, you might have noted that December 1908 was the date of Popov's first flight. For you, that is probably further proof of your beliefs, for me, it hardly is.

 

Edited April 12, 2022 by GdC26

[tifes]

6 hours ago, Luftmensch said:

 

To Luftmensch: Did Popov have some of the French Air Service badge? Do you know something more about it? I just found the info that he was unfit to serve as a pilot but he served “as helmsman on airship”. By other words, after his almost fatal incident in 1910 he never flew again and obviously his biography didn’t count “helmsmanship on the airship” as flying job. Nothing more and nothing less. So I suppose that you have a verified info that he has got either “l´insigne de pilote breveté de ballon dirigeable“ or „l´Insigne pour le personnel d'équipage d'avion ou de ballon dirigeable“ (bombers, gunners, photographers, mechanics, etc.). Great! Can you share this info with us?  

 

To Sandro : in 1908 he was just a mechanic. He flew from December 1909 (without license; license issued in March 1910 till May 1910)

 

Final words: I am familiar with this “Popov badge” as it popped up on European market some 10 years ago. It was offered to more collectors, me included. It remained unsold...  

 

 

Training requirements for balloon pilots:

 

Performance:

50 captive or free balloon ascents before the enemy, the former with a duration of at least two hours each. (Shorter flights with a duration of less than two hours may only then be counted if especial success or performance is achieved.) Six free balloon sorties including two under independent command. Understanding of the relationship between aircraft observation and balloon observation.

 

Skill:

Complete mastery of the entire service operation of a balloon detachment and thorough knowledge of all technical equipment. Transport matters: General knowledge of combustion engines.

 

Balloon Theory:

Basic principles of balloon construction. Characteristics and performance of introduced balloons. Knowledge of all technical equipment with a balloon detachment. Knowledge of the profiles of own and enemy aircraft.

 

Aero Navigation:

Sufficient knowledge in gas technology and its application in the balloon service.

 

Meteorology:

The most important characteristics in so far as they are necessary for balloon crews

Orientation:  

Complete familiarity in map reading, ability to find one's way.

 

Reconnaissance:

Reporting, production of sketches, drawing of plans.

 

Photography:

Complete mastery of balloon photography, photo evaluation for target reconnaissance.

 

Communications and fire control:

Complete mastery of observation for artillery purposes. Knowledge of artillery gun control procedure and artillery methods.

 

Organization:

Knowledge of the organization of own and enemy forces as far as this is necessary for the balloon pilot.

 

Tactics:

Full understanding of battle procedures. Characteristics of air fighting tactics.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

To Luftmensch: Did Popov have some of the French Air Service badge? Do you know something more about it? I just found the info that he was unfit to serve as a pilot but he served “as helmsman on airship”. By other words, after his almost fatal incident in 1910 he never flew again and obviously his biography didn’t count “helmsmanship on the airship” as flying job. Nothing more and nothing less. So I suppose that you have a verified info that he has got either “l´insigne de pilote breveté de ballon dirigeable“ or „l´Insigne pour le personnel d'équipage d'avion ou de ballon dirigeable“ (bombers, gunners, photographers, mechanics, etc.). Great! Can you share this info with us?  

 

To Sandro : in 1908 he was just a mechanic. He flew from December 1909 (without license; license issued in March 1910 till May 1910)

 

Final words: I am familiar with this “Popov badge” as it popped up on European market some 10 years ago. It was offered to more collectors, me included. It remained unsold...  

 

 

Training requirements for balloon pilots:

 

Performance:

50 captive or free balloon ascents before the enemy, the former with a duration of at least two hours each. (Shorter flights with a duration of less than two hours may only then be counted if especial success or performance is achieved.) Six free balloon sorties including two under independent command. Understanding of the relationship between aircraft observation and balloon observation.

 

Skill:

Complete mastery of the entire service operation of a balloon detachment and thorough knowledge of all technical equipment. Transport matters: General knowledge of combustion engines.

 

Balloon Theory:

Basic principles of balloon construction. Characteristics and performance of introduced balloons. Knowledge of all technical equipment with a balloon detachment. Knowledge of the profiles of own and enemy aircraft.

 

Aero Navigation:

Sufficient knowledge in gas technology and its application in the balloon service.

 

Meteorology:

The most important characteristics in so far as they are necessary for balloon crews

 

Orientation:  

Complete familiarity in map reading, ability to find one's way.

 

Reconnaissance:

Reporting, production of sketches, drawing of plans.

 

Photography:

Complete mastery of balloon photography, photo evaluation for target reconnaissance.

 

Communications and fire control:

Complete mastery of observation for artillery purposes. Knowledge of artillery gun control procedure and artillery methods.

 

Organization:

Knowledge of the organization of own and enemy forces as far as this is necessary for the balloon pilot.

 

Tactics:

Full understanding of battle procedures. Characteristics of air fighting tactics.

 

Edited April 12, 2022 by tifes

[GdC26]

18 minutes ago, tifes said:

 

 

To Sandro : in 1908 he was just a mechanic. He flew from December 1909 (without license; license issued in March 1910 till May 1910)

 

 

 

Thanks Tomas.

 

I was referring to the sentence

 

"He flew solo for the first time in December 1908"

 

in one of your earlier posts, but gather you mistyped. Which makes  the "1908" reference on the badge something of a riddle again. and the badge itself an article of faith ....

 

Kind regards,

 Sandro

 

 

Edited April 12, 2022 by GdC26

[RedNoseScout]

It has mystery for sure…. I am almost exhausted from reading everything ? it’s all good. Really.  We each control our own destiny.   But keep going - my GMIC score just went up a lot lol.  

Anyway… 

 

here’s a new post Tomas, Enzio, el. al. 
I’m asking for some help. What category should I post badges under in the future? 
ur comments r invited.  

 

 

[tifes]

24 minutes ago, GdC26 said:

Thanks Tomas.

 

I was referring to the sentence

 

"He flew solo for the first time in December 1908"

 

in one of your earlier posts, but gather you mistyped. Which makes  the "1908" reference on the badge something of a riddle again. and the badge itself an article of faith ....

 

Kind regards,

 Sandro

 

 

Sorry my fault, Sandro. Yes, December 1909. https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Попов,_Николай_Евграфович

 

 

[RedNoseScout]

So it was Dec 1908 ? thank u

[tifes]

No, December 1909

 

Увлечение авиацией

После этого Попов всерьёз увлёкся авиацией. В 1909 году он уехал во Францию, где стал работать механиком в авиашколе, созданной братьями Райт под Парижем, что позволяло ему проводить целые дни на аэродроме Жювизи под Парижем. Получив первые уроки лётного мастерства у шеф-пилота и первого ученика школы Райтов графа Шарля де Ламбера, француза, сына русского подданного, он 13 декабря 1909 года совершил свой первый самостоятельный вылет на аэроплане «Райт». Первый полёт длился недолго: из за неправильного движения рулями Попов опустился слишком резко и довольно сильно расшибся. Пострадал и аэроплан. Это, однако, не обескуражило Николая Евграфовича. Через месяц, оправившись от ран и ушибов, он вновь устремился в небо. А так как своего аппарата у него не было и после неудачного декабрьского дебюта в Жювизи там никто не хотел предоставить ему хотя бы ещё раз самолёт для тренировок, Попов сделал «ход конём». Он поступил на службу в… общество «Ариэль» и уехал в Канн, на, тамошний аэродром. Как служащему «Ариэля» и будущему «коммивояжеру» этого акционерного общества ему разрешили летать на «райтах», овладевать пилотским мастерством. «Здесь также не раз мне приходилось падать, — признается он несколько месяцев спустя, — расшибаться и ломать аппараты. Но я не унывал… Чинил поврежденные аппараты и снова предпринимал полёты. Таких падений было, кажется, около восемнадцати. И вот в результате я совершенно самостоятельно научился летать на труднейшем аппарате — биплане братьев Райт. Первый вполне удачный полёт он совершил почти перед самым началом авиационных состязаний в Канне.

[GdC26]

29 minutes ago, RedNoseScout said:

So it was Dec 1908 ? thank u

As said, reading is an art. Tomas just confirmed that he mistyped, and that it is in fact December 1909, as the Wikipedia link he added confirms. In a free Google translation of:

 

"В 1909 году он уехал во Францию, где стал работать механиком в авиашколе, созданной братьями Райт под Парижем, что позволяло ему проводить целые дни на аэродромеЖювизи под Парижем. Получив первые уроки лётного мастерства у шеф-пилота и первого ученика школы Райтов графа Шарля де Ламбера, француза, сына русского подданного, он 13 декабря 1909 года совершил свой первый самостоятельный вылет на аэроплане «Райт». Первый полёт длился недолго: из за неправильного движения рулями Попов опустился слишком резко и довольно сильно расшибся. Пострадал и аэроплан. Это, однако, не обескуражило Николая Евграфовича. Через месяц, оправившись от ран и ушибов, он вновь устремился в небо. "

 

 

"In 1909, he left for France, where he began working as a mechanic in an aviation school set up by the Wright brothers near Paris, which allowed him to spend whole days at the Juvisy airfield near Paris. Having received his first flying lessons from the chief pilot and the first student of the Wright school, Count Charles de Lambert, a Frenchman, the son of a Russian citizen, on December 13, 1909, he made his first solo flight on a Wright airplane. The first flight did not last long: due to incorrect movement of the rudders, Popov sank too sharply and hurt himself quite badly. The aircraft was also damaged. This, however, did not discourage Nikolai Evgrafovich. A month later, having recovered from wounds and bruises, he again rushed into the sky."

 

But hey, what are facts for if not to bend them to fit the story ....? 

 

And why actually read what those heretics say anyway ...?

 

Kind regards,

 Sandro

Edited April 12, 2022 by GdC26

[Luftmensch]

Tifes, you said:

 

During WWI, he served as a navigator in an airship of the French Air Force.

 

So he would have been trained and qualified to wear the French Balloon brevet.  Nothing to verify, unless your information is incorrect.

 

The Austrian equivalent badge for that rate is the Luftfahrerabz.  So there is a tenuous link.

 

By the way,

 

"...obviously his biography didn’t count “helmsmanship on the airship” as flying job. Nothing more and nothing less..."

 

I suggest if you meet a veteran who served on a bomber as a navigator, bomb aimer, radio operator, air gunner or just "turned a wheel" you don't tell him he didn't fly in the war...

 

 

 

 

 

 

[RedNoseScout]

Santos 

 

 

[kasle]

Just as a side note to your discussion:

It took a lot of wishful thinking to make Yevg.(rafovich) from abbreviation which is clearly Serg.(eevich). I bet your (Tifes) method used was first looking for matching last name and then trying to "bend" the rest of engraving to expected form. But regardless of how deep your knowledge of Russian is (I spent 10 years learning it, speaking and writing fluently),  your results are pure fantasy, or as I said, wishful thinking. I am also not aware of any reform that would make "N" from clear "A", which is identical in Latin as well as in Cyrillic. Before we spend a fruitless debate of who is better in Russian, I would like to say I am not aware of any orthography reform in Russia or anywhere else that allowed to write the same letter in two different ways - When letter "v" in word "Popov" is transcribed as "b", it can not be transcribed as "p" in word Yevg. It is just another word ("p" is "r" in azbuka). It is a question of pure logic.

Shortly said, I recommend to return back to the beginning. That is not that Popov.

Edited April 14, 2022 by kasle

[tifes]

Old transcription of "Еевграфович" like "Михаил Еевграфович Салтыков-Щедрин"  so I thought there might be "Еерч.", that what I wrote above. If you see Сергеевич, then OK for me (you are not alone, obviously E.L. sees the same), point taken. Now just to find a pilot with such name in Imperial Russia who had something to do with flying in/ or at least about 1908. I wish you good luck...or maybe Simus Rex should have a look at engraving and mystery would be solved

[GdC26]

I'm a bit with Tomas on this: not sure it would actually bring us back to the beginning.

 

The badge itself is fairly common, its value lies in the engraving. The facts, then  remain as Enzo and Tomas have stated (real badge, introduced in 1917;  hand engraving in Russian; no Russians flew in the Austrian airfare in WW I; no discernible connection between the 1908 dated dedication and the badge or Austria).

 

Whilst RedNoseScout is correct that there were frequent contacts between aviation ioneers in the first decade of the 20th century, there were not that many of them in 1908, And Tomas has noted that when the badge entered the market it went unsold and tha those who inspected it in hand dismissed it as bad. 

 

And then there are the small glitches in the engravings of the two badges under discussion, here and in a parallel thread, that seem to stand in the way of postive attribution: here, the middle name, in the other thread the "ö" that renders the attribution to Fedeke speculative. 

 

All of this could of course be coincidence,  but at the very least, gives (me) reason for pause. 

 

Kind regards, 

 Sandro

Edited April 15, 2022 by GdC26