Dave Danner

For a Bavarian officer, the Bavarian abbreviations are little icons, so you really can't use them unless you want to do a lot of copying and pasting images. Generally, the Prussian rank list abbreviations are the most commonly seen and used, with some additions and changes. A lot of these are for awards not in the rank list, like many enlisted awards, campaign and commemorative medals, and awards created during World War I. For the wartime awards, the abbreviations used in the Reichswehr ranklists tend to be the most commonly seen. Also sometimes those of the later navy rank lists. And sometimes we jump back and forth, just to confuse people (including ourselves). One that has several different versions in common use is the Ducal Saxe-Ernestine House Order. Sometimes it's SEH or SEHO for Saxe-Ernestine House Order. The Prussian rank lists use HSH for "Herzoglich Sächs. Hausorden". The Reichswehr rank lists use EH for "Ernestinischer Hausorden". So, short answer, best to err on the side of the Prussian rank lists.

Like most Bavarian orders, the St. Michael went through various changes. By World War I, it had the following classes (with Prussian rank list abbreviations): BM.G.Kr - Großkreuz BM1 - 1.Klasse BM2 - 2.Klasse (mit und ohne Stern) BME - Ehrenkreuz BM4 - 3.Klasse BM4a - 4.Klasse mit der Krone BM4b - 4.Klasse BM5a - Verdienstkreuz BM5b - silberne Verdienstmedaille BM5c - bronzene Verdienstmedaille This reflected changes made in 1910, which were the addition of the Ehrenkreuz and the crowns to the 4.Klasse and Verdienstkreuz. For some reason, the Prussian ranklist didn't include the Verdienstkreuz mit der Krone. The navy rank lists use the same abbreviations. Bavarian rank lists and court and state handbooks use icons rather than abbreviations. The last Deutscher Ordens-Almanach was published in 1909, so its abbreviations don't include the 1910 changes. It uses "BayMich" and calls the Großkreuz "BayMich1" and the 1.Klasse "BayMich1a". The Handbuch für das deutsche Reich uses the DOA abbreviations, with the added classes. Other sources have different abbreviations as well. In the Handbuch über den preussischen Hof und Staat, which uses "BHM", the BHM1a is the Großkreuz and the BHM1 is the 1.Klasse. The Reichsheer ranklists also use "BHM", but there the Großkreuz is BHM.GK. I myself am inconsistent, sometimes using BM, sometimes BHM. BHM is less likely to be confused with the Military Merit Order. And then there are the Saxon rank lists and the court and state handbooks of the other states. ... Regards, Dave

The Russians invaded East Prussia shortly after the Germans invaded Belgium, surprising the Germans, who did not expect the Russian Army to mobilize and move so quickly. After the battles to take the Belgian forts at Liege and Namur, IR 32 was part of the forces pulled from the Western Front and sent east. They arrived in time to participate in the Battle of the Masurian Lakes. The fight in the Rogahlwalde, also spelled Rogalwalde, was part of that campaign. The Germans defeated the Russian invasion, but it may have cost them the war, since the whole German war plan for a two-front war hinged on defeating the French quickly so they could then turn to face the Russians. The Russian invasion diverted German attention and resources that might have made a difference on the Marne.

He was a Hauptmann in IR 32. I don't know why the pips are missing or fuzzy. You can barely make them out as bumps on the right strap. Gustav Leopold Friedrich v. Vogel, 19.4.1872-16.9.1914. A Hauptmann in IR 32, promoted to Major on 19 August 1914, wounded on 11 September 1914 by Adamsheide, East Prussia, died on 16 September in Rogahlwalde, East Prussia. Ribbons are: Prussia: Red Eagle Order 4th Class Prussia: Centenary Medal Baden: Order of the Zähringer Lion, Knight 2nd Class Saxony: Albert Order, Knight 1st Class Saxe-Weimar: Order of the White Falcon, Knight 2nd Division Baden: 1902 Jubilee Medal Thailand: Order of the White Elephant, Knight

I thought the same thing, but wondered if there was some other unit like field police who wore Jäger shakos and also happened to be numbered "13". Are the feathers a Saxon Jäger thing, like Italian Bersaglieri, or is that a personal choice to keep a chicken up there in case you get hungry?

Matt Bavarian regulations allowed one to wear both a Military Merit Order with Swords and one without, even if of the same class. So the rank list has to reflect that. Some other states only allowed the wear of the highest award of a particular class. Prussian regulations allowed wear of only the higher award in a particular class, but if you got a higher class without swords, you could still wear a lower class with swords. So if you had a peacetime Crown Order 4th Class or Red Eagle Order 4th Class and then received swords to it, for example in a colonial conflict, you only wore the swords version. But if you then received a peacetime 3rd Class or higher, you still could wear the 4th Class with Swords. Hindenburg, for example, had the Grand Cross of the Red Eagle Order but still wore his 4th Class with Swords.

As I'm sure I have written before, it is common and convenient to refer to the two versions of the Iron Cross 2nd Class ribbon as "combatant" and "non-combatant", but for the 1914 version, this is not really accurate. Prussian official sources rarely do so; rather, they simply say "on the black-white ribbon" or "on the white-black ribbon", or something similar The original Stiftungsurkunde of 10 March 1813 stated that the 2nd Class would be awarded on the black ribbon if earned in combat before the enemy, and on the white ribbon otherwise. About 4% of 2nd Class awards were on the white ribbon, to politicians, civil and military officials, civilians, medical personnel and others, About a fifth of these were to medical personnel. The statute of 19 July 1870 renewing the Iron Cross used the same language. About 9% of 1870-71 2nd Class awards were on the white ribbon. I don't know if anyone has ever done a complete breakdwon, but the percentage of these which were to medical personnel seems much higher than for the 1813 version. Just going through the first few pages, it looks like about half were to medical personnel, and the other half include a number of chaplains, paymasters, and other military officials in military formations at the front. Awards of other decorations on the Iron Cross ribbon through the colonial wars also appear to follow this pattern. Doctors, chaplains, veterinarians, etc. tended to get the Red Eagle or Crown Order with Swords on the white ribbon unless their merit was in actual combat operations. Maybe someone has done a more complete study? The Urkunde über die Erneuerung des Eisernen Kreuzes of 5 August 1914 changed the wording. It stated that "the 2nd Class will be worn on the buttonhole on a black ribbon with white edge, provided it is awarded for merit in the war zone. For merit earned at home, it will be awarded on the white ribbon with black edge." This meant that medical personnel, chaplains, officials, and other personnel at or near the front would receive the cross on the black ribbon. But even this distinction does not appear to have lasted long. On 16 March 1915, a new regulation changed the language to "the 2nd Class will be worn on the buttonhole on a black ribbon with white edge, provided it is awarded for merit in the war zone. For merit earned at home, it will be awarded on the white ribbon with black edge, unless the award was made on account of exceptional military merit." In practice, this meant that for serving military personnel, even on the homefront, practically all awards of the Iron Cross 2nd Class were on the black ribbon. Officer in the Kriegsministerium in Berlin, instructor at Sennelager, paper-pusher in a stellv. Korpsgeneralkommando - they all got the black ribbon. The result shows up in the award numbers. Of over 5 million awards, only about 13,000, or 2/10ths of 1%, were on the white ribbon (EK2w). These typically went to government officials and civilians involved in the war industry. The 1918 Navy rank list shows also that shipbuilding officials (Marine-Bauräte and the like) also received the EK2w. Since we don't have a similar list for the Prussian Army, I'm not sure what the practice was there. Looking at Bavarian records, I don't see a consistent pattern. For example, in the Kriegsrangliste of the Artillerie-Werkstätte in Munich, some Zeug-officers and officials have the EK2, some have the EK2w, and some have the War Aid Cross, and many have no Prussian award. This last award also complicates the matter. The Prussian Merit Cross for War Aid was created on 5 December 1916. Many people, especially civil servants, now received this award where previously they might have been awarded the EK2w. Otherwise the number of EK2w awards would probably have been much higher than 13,000. The Ehrenkreuz des Weltkrieges, established on 13 July 1934, had different criteria. The regulation for the Ehrenkreuz für Frontkämpfer required that one was actually in harm's way at some point, so military personnel who could not document service at the front received the Ehrenkreuz für Kriegsteilnehmer. The other states of the German Empire had their own criteria, which often differed from Prussia's. Going back to the bar at the top of this thread, Braunschweig's regulations were similar to Prussia's. The War Merit Cross was originally awarded on the blue-yellow ribbon for service at the front, and the yellow-blue ribbon for service in the homeland. As with Prussia, this was later changed to allow military personnel in the homeland to receive the blue-yellow ribbon. But if you had received the yellow-blue ribbon before the change, it was up to you to contact the State Ministry in Braunschweig and request a new Urkunde awarding the blue-yellow ribbon. If you didn't bother, you end up with a combination like that shown here. The Hesse medal bar above, however, is interesting. Is the General Honor Decoration a "For War Merits" version? Hesse's regulations underwent a lot of changes over the course of the war, so it gets confusing, but in most cases, someone who was eligible for the Iron Cross on the black ribbon should have gotten his General Honor Decoration "For War Merits" on the war ribbon. I'm sure there were exceptions, though, and post-1918 practice was all over the place. Also, technically, according to the regulations, one shouldn't have more than one war medal (General Honor Decoration, Militär-Sanitätskreuz, or Kriegsehrenzeichen), but this rule does not seem to have been followed in many cases. And this is one of those cases where I really wish we still had Rick L's help, but I'm pretty sure that according to Third Reich regulations, since the Kriegsehrenzeichen was literally a "war decoration" even if for homefront merit, it should come before the Ehrenkreuz, not after. However, many soldiers didn't value these homefront awards very highly, so they had them mounted like peacetime state awards after the war decorations. I hope this helps, Dave

You can add to your list Lt. Franz v. Kerssenbrock from Jasta 39. LKEK am 10.1.1917, gef. im Luftkampf 3.12.1917. Your list has both fliers and observers. The first group of names are all observers. Is the second group of names supposed to be pilots or both? Kuhlmann, Lindemann and Wiegrebe were Beobachter, and Prüssner, Fromme and Rohdewald were Flugzeugführer. Fricke didn't indicate which he was. Also, Büscher, Hilker, Schröder, Fricke, Prüssner and Fromme were Lts.d.R.. Kuhlmann was an OLt.a.D.

There were 741 awards of the LKEK, of which at least ten were observers. One was a Seefliegerbeobachter and one was in a Saxon squadron, so they can probably be ruled out. That still leaves eight, as well as any others who might have gotten the LKEK before joining the Fliegertruppe. I'm not sure what else there is in the photo to narrow it down further.

I still don't know why the postcard has FAR 59 on the reverse. Maybe it was an error, or maybe it was meant to be sent from Ernst to Max in FAR 59.

Max Saatweber's Patent as Secondelieutenant was 17.11.1891. He apparently did not fully recover from his wound. He was promoted to Major on 27.1.15, served in the rear as commander of Train-Ers.-Abt. 8, and was retired with pension on 6.11.16. But as noted, we know it's not Max in the photo. He had the RAO4Kr and the Centenary Medal, and no SLH4. The published Waldeck rolls have Max Saatweber with a WVK3X, but this is an error. As a result, I think I have him. It is not Max, but his brother Ernst. And a Jäger-Offizier to boot: Saatweber, Ernst August, *16.1.1868 in Barmen, Kaufmann ebenda. 18.8.88 Sek.Lt.d.R. d. JB 8 27.1.96 Prem.Lt.d.R. 14.11.03 Hptm.d.R. 22.5.12 Abschied xx.8.14 als Hptm.d.R.a.D. einberufen 10.9.14 als Hptm.d.R. mit Pat v. 28.3.06 b.d. Res. d. JB 8 wieder angestellt. 18.4.16 Char. als Maj.d.R. verliehen, z.Zt. Fhr. LdwBrigErsBtl 43 27.5.19 Abschied bewilligt The WVK3X was awarded on 23.5.17 to a Maj. Saatweber, Btls.Kdr. in LIR 94. As noted above, the active Maj. Saatweber was already retired and was with a Train-Abteilung in the rear. However, LdwBrigErsBtl 43, which Ernst Saatweber commanded, was indeed one of the battalions that formed LIR 94. So the Waldeck rolls must have left off the "d.R.", and we got the wrong Saatweber, which is an all-too-common problem with award rolls. Ernst Saatweber only had the LD1 in the 1912 Rangliste. I think Rick or someone else had finished transcribing the Schaumburg-Lippe House Order rolls, so perhaps Daniel or someone else might be able to check if he got the order between 1912 and 1914. If so, that probably would confirm it. Another brother, Paul Saatweber, was promoted to Hptm.d.L.a.D. in 1916. He apparently spent most or all of the war with the Kommandantur d. Kriegsgefangenlagers Friedrichsfeld bei Wesel. Regards, Dave

I suppose it could have been addressed to Saatweber from a comrade.

Glenn, I thought it might be, but I blew it up about as far as I could without losing all resolution, and it appeared to be a KO4 by the wider ring around the center medallion and the Einfassung on the cross arms. Your image is better, so now I am unsure again. At 400%, it still looks like a wider and more raised medallion ring than an LD1, and the Einfassung further from the edge like a Crown Order, but the arms don't appear curved. Frhr. v. Hadeln, who had a KO4, was the only match I found with both a prewar Schaumburg-Lippe House Order and a wartime Waldeck Merit Cross who could not be ruled out by other known awards. Though checking his date of rank as SekLt., I see he should also have had a Centenary Medal. Any clues from the uniform? I could maybe start looking for reserve officers with the LD1 and SLH4, and seeing if they match any of the Waldeck Merit Cross recipients for whom we don't have other information like their prewar units. There's probably some otherwise anonymous OLt.d.L. Schmidt with the Waldeck award who will turn out to be a former Bückeburger Jäger or Princely Lippe Something-Rat.

No idea. Probably an NCO's 21-years' service or 15-years' service decoration, but perhaps an LD2 if he went reserve before leaving service. If an NCO's DA, I suppose it would have been a post-1913 medal/cross which was substituted for a pre-1913 Schnalle when he mounted the medals. There were a few Prussian regiments with a Bavarian connection. IR 47's Chef was King Ludwig III from 1886 to 1918. IR 52's Chef was Prinz Leopold von Bayern from 1885 to 1918. Crown Prince Rupprecht was à la suite KR 1 in 1914, but I don't know from what date. Prinz Ludwig Ferdinand von Bayern was Chef of DR 15 from 1897 to 1918. Prinz Alfons von Bayern was Chef of DR 5 in 1914, but again I don't know when he was named chief. Prinz-Regent Luitpold von Bayern was Chef of FAR 4 until his death in 1912. In all these regiments, both peacetime and wartime awards of the Bavarian Military Merit Order are found.

I can't read the shoulder boards, but by the combination of awards this should be Major Karl Moritz Wilhelm Freiherr von Hadeln (1876-1930) of the Garde-Jäger-Bataillon. The medal bar is Iron Cross 2nd Class, Crown Order 4th Class, Schaumburg-Lippe Cross for Loyal Service, Waldeck Merit Cross 4th Class with Swords, Schaumburg-Lippe House Order of the Honor Cross 4th Class. Hadeln also had two pre-war foreign awards, from Bulgaria and Portugal, but he seems to have gone with a "German-only" bar. He was a native of Waldeck (born in Arolsen and his father was a princely Waldeck chamberlain), accounting for the Merit Cross. There was some connection between Schaumburg-Lippe and the GJB, as a bunch of battalion officers received the House Order in 1911-12 and as the photo shows Hadeln also received the principality's war decoration. I suppose they might have been part of the escort in 1911 for the funeral of Fürst Georg zu Schaumburg-Lippe or the coronation of Fürst Adolf zu Schaumburg-Lippe.

The Dragonerkaserne is still there, in Borny, a suburb east of Metz about a mile and a half from the Metz city center. It was a caserne for the French Army until 1990, but now serves as the Campus Bridoux of the University of Metz. On the good side, that means you probably go inside and look around. On the bad side, that means there is likely nothing in terms of monuments or plaques there. But at least you can see the buildings themselves. Here is a Google Earth image:

He was an Oberst. I just can't find him in my resources which are mainly active officers. Given his age and date of retirement, I would guess he was an Oberst z.D. or z.V.

Sorry. No file. He retired in 1931. He was recalled, but given the lack of a personnel file and Wehrmacht DA on the ribbon bar, perhaps as a z.V. officer. He was Feldkommandant in Belgrad. If you Google his name and Belgrad, you will find reference to some of the orders he signed relating to the treatment of locals, including Jews. According to the 1972 Gothaisches Genealogisches Handbuch, he was taken by the Soviets in 1945 in Naumburg an der Saale and disappeared. He either died in their hands or they handed him over to the Yugoslavs for disposition.

It's not an MVO. It is an MVK. Before 1905, there was only one class of the MVK, and it had blue enamel like the MVO. The MVO's lower classes were the Ritterkreuz I.Klasse, gilt and enamel with flames between the arms, and Ritterkreuz II.Klasse, same as the I.Klasse but without flames. The MVK was the same as the Ritterkreuz II.Klasse, but silver instead of gilt. After 1905, the MVO was reorganized with the Ritterkreuz II.Klasse as the 4th Class as we usually know it, silver with blue enamel and the flames, and the Ritterkreuz I.Klasse remaining as it was, but renamed the 3rd Class. Also in 1905, the MVK was divided into the 1st and 2nd Class. It lost its enamel on the arms while the 2nd Class lacked all enamel. After 1913, these essentially became the 2nd and 3rd Classes and a new 1st Class was added in gilt. The blue ribbon is likely for a long service. It would fit someone in a regiment like IR 47 with a Bavarian connection to receive Bavarian peacetime awards, too young for 1871 but probably retired or discharged after 1897 and too old or invalided to be recalled to active service in World War I. ihxs, the combination doesn't bother me. Is you issue with the construction? Dave

If she was a Gold Star Mother, there might be another Marino in the NY State database under those killed in the war. This is the main names database that includes various categories: http://192.168.1.12/dbtw-wpd/textbase/SearchRosters.htm

There is a database. Nothing comes up for 57530. http://24.39.195.147/dbtw-wpd/textbase/Web_Roster_Number.htm There is an Emilio Marino, but his issued medal was numbered 45909.

OK, that one I didn't recognize. Thanks!

I might have a copy of his personnel file, but I am away from my desktop and won't be able to check for a few days.

I am wondering what the last ribbon on the bottom two (second to last on the top one) is supposed to be. From the colors and position, I would assume it is supposed to stand for a Bulgarian War Commemorative Medal, but the edge stripes are not the right width. Maybe a "close enough" substitute, but I don't recognize it. So a Württemberger who likely ended World War I with 8-12 years of service and returned in the 1934-36 as an E-officer. He got the 4-year DA on 2 October 1936, and reached 12 years' service between then and 1939, adding the second DA ribbon and the Austrian War Commemorative Medal. Then around 1940, he added the Schutzwall Decoration and the Hungarian War Commemorative Medal. An E-officer, even in the rear doing something like running a Wehrmeldeamt, would probably have eventually gotten a 1939 War Merit Cross with Swords, but by that point he might not have bothered with remounting.

Everything post-1945 I have from S&L - Bundesrepublik awards and '57 awards - has their maker's mark. Do the Finnish ones have them?