Dave Danner

The officer in post #60 has a Luftwaffe DA. There is a tiny chance it could be his, but that would take a very specific set of circumstances. As far as anyone knows, the rest of the 2nd Class rolls are lost, though perhaps someday someone will find a box in the cellar of a castle somewhere where the rolls were sent for safekeeping during World War II. Besides what was published, I have managed to find another 100 or so names from other sources such as Wehrmacht personnel files. I can't say whether the ribbon bar is unique, but it is certainly a rare combination. There was no natural connection between Saxe-Weimar and Silesia. So he could have been a citizen of the Grand Duchy, but living in Silesia and serving in a local unit through and after the war. Or he could have been in a Thuringian regiment, IR 94 or another with a Saxe-Weimar connection, and just ended up in Silesia after the war.

Nice combination! Probably not identifiable since the White Falcon rolls are incomplete (IIRC, Rick and Daniel said a portion of the GSF3bX rolls were missing, including for a lot of natives of the Grand Duchy). There are no rolls for the Silesian Eagle. Judging by the Sudeten medal but no Wehrmacht long service, possible a reserve officer. Also, he got the precedence wrong, as the Silesian Eagle ranked after the Honor Cross for Combatants. I don't think this is unusual. Some veterans apparently treated the Silesian Eagle as a decoration so they thought it should rank ahead of a service medal.

Frankl received the Golden Bravery Medal on 9.2.16 for actions at Somme Py on 6.10.15, the date Andreas has above. He received the EK2 on 7.2.17. He was severely wounded at Somme Py and lost his left eye. It appears he never returned to the front and was released from active duty in 1917. The Kriegsrangliste has a bunch of abbreviations and some handwriting I can't make out, so I am iffy on the details. The EK and Bravery Medals are the only decorations shown, and the Wound Badge presumably was awarded later. He has several Kriegsrangliste entries on Ancestry, but the one for the I.Ers.Btl. of 14.IR has the latest entries.

Hi, The top is the Syrian Ba'athist motto seen on many patches - "nation, honor. loyalty" The bottom says "al-maghawir" (المغاوير), or "[the] Commandos" If you Google the motto "nation, honor. loyalty", be careful what links you click on. The motto is used by the pro-Assad hackers of the Syrian Electronic Army, so there might be malware on a site they've hacked and left that message.

Quirky rules. Enlisted men in Schwarzburg-Sondershausen received the Silver Merit Medal of the House Order of the Honor Cross after 12 years' honorable service. Like all classes of the Honor Cross, a lower class had to be returned when a higher class was received. The Medal for Merit in War was not a higher class, but as a war decoration, it did take precedence. So if he got the Merit Medal for long service, he probably returned it when he got the Medal for Merit in War. I suppose it is also possible he left the army before reaching 12 years' service, and was called back during the war.

Yes. German sources often call this the stature ribbon., White with orange stripes.

Edwin Hans Otto v. Schweinichen, *7.3.1879 in Görlitz. Hptm., IR 128, Maj.a.D. Ritter des Kgl. Hausordens von Hohenzollern mit Schwertern. Still alive in the 1942 Gotha.

One correction: on #3, the RAO3SKr is the Red Eagle 3rd Class with Bow ("mit der Schleife") and Crown; no swords. The bow/Schleife showed that the recipient had previously received the 4th Class of the RAO. The crown was a special distinction, for special merit. Those who received an RAO4 or RAO3 with the Crown continued to wear it on their medal bars even as they moved up the ranks and received higher grades of the order. If you just had the RAO3S without the Crown, you would stop wearing it when you received the RAO2. And just to show how complicated it got, just as the bow on the RAO3 showed you previously received the RAO4, the oakleaves on the RAO2 showed that you had received the RAO3. A Prussian general with the 2nd Class would almost always have it with oakleaves, since he would have followed the normal progression - RAO4, KO3, RAO3S, KO2, RAO2E, etc. - as he moved up the ranks. An RAO2 without the oakleaves usually means the holder was not a Prussian officer, and had not received the lower classes. Rank lists usually used a crossed swords icon for awards with swords, or sometime wrote out "m.Schw."; since we don't have swords on our typewriters, we usually use "X" for swords when we abbreviate the awards. So the 3rd Class with Swords and Crown would be RAO3XKr and with Swords, Bow and Crown would be RAO3SXKr. And so on with all the complications of this order.

#2 is not the Bavarian Max Joseph. It is the Prussian Merit Cross for War Aid. Most collectors don't regard it very highly, but that little zinc cross was a Prussian war decoration, so as a result it ranked after the EK2 but ahead of Ludendorff's peacetime RAO3SKr. The precedence is correct for a Prussian. Prussian war decorations first - EK2 and PrVfK (VK in Daniel's list) - followed by his peacetime Prussian decorations - RAO3SKr, DA, Cent. - and then non-Prussian awards. The order in which non-Prussian German state awards were worn varies from person to person. In both pictured bars of Ludendorff's, he appears to have ranked them by the level of the state - first kingdoms, then grand duchies, then duchies, then principalities, then free cities. Your list appears accurate for these with one exception: the Lippe-Detmold War Merit Cross is before the Schaumburg-Lippe Cross for Loyal Service, not after. He is not wearing a Bavarian Max Joseph Knight's Cross at all. Rather, in both photos he is wearing the breast star of the Grand Cross of that order. Regards, Dave

The Turkish War Medal should not come before the Honor Cross for Combatants. I can't tell because of the fading, but are you sure that's not another ribbon, to which the crescent device has been attached? Perhaps a Hessian General Honor Decoration for Bravery? I can't tell if it used to be light blue and faded - maybe a peek on the back under the felt backing. The red stripes appear to be too narrow for a Hamburg Hanseatic Cross, so if the main part is indeed white, perhaps a Red Eagle Order or Medal.

If he was awarded the Red Eagle Order for service as an officer, then yes. If he was awarded the Red Eagle Order as a civil servant, then likely yes, but possibly not. Example 1: College student in Leipzig, One-year volunteer in a Saxon regiment, enters Prussian civil service, remains in the Saxon reserve/Landwehr but never seeks a commission. Gets his Red Eagle Order as a civil servant. When World War I starts, he is a Vizefeldwebel der lLandwehr or Vizefeldwebel d.L.a.D., and perhaps because of his age gets a commission as a Lt.d.L. Example 2: College student in Leipzig, One-year volunteer in a Saxon regiment, enters Prussian civil service, remains in the Saxon reserve/Landwehr and is commissioned a Lt.d.R. Stays in Saxon service long enough to get an LD2 or LD1, but no other Saxon decorations. When the war starts, he is a Saxon OLt.d.R.a.D. or Lt.d.R.a.D., working for the government in Hannover. He volunteers or is called up in Prussian service and never is put in for a Saxon award. Example 3: Same as above, except he is still in Saxon service. Landwehrbezirk Leipzig I and II were the Kontrollbezirke for Saxon officers living in Prussia. In the 1914 Saxon rank list, there are several officers there, Hauptleute der Landwehr and Oberleutnants der Landwehr, who have the Red Eagle Order 4th Class and the Saxon LD1. Several of these do not show up in the published Saxon award rolls. That may be because they were too old or in vital civilian jobs and so never went to the front, or did go to the front but were killed in 1914, but it's also possible one of them could be your guy. Unfortunately, there are also no rolls for the Oldenburg and Braunschweig awards, so there is no way to confirm or deny.

The ribbon is for a Saxon long service award. Given the lack of other Saxon awards, it was probably a Landwehr-Dienstauszeichnung 1.Klasse or 2.Klasse. Possibly, he was a student at the University of Leipzig when he did his one-year volunteer year, and therefore was in the reserve/Landwehr of the Royal Saxon Army. But he was not a Saxon citizen and ended up in the Prussian civil service, earning the Red Eagle Order. During World War I, he was perhaps serving in or with the Prussian Army somewhere in the X.Armeekorps area, which included both Oldenburg and Braunschweig, getting their war awards. There is also a chance that the ribbon was for an officer's 25-year Dienstauszeichnungskreuz and he was an Oberstleutnant or higher. In that case, his Saxon orders might have been bumped up to pinback or neck badges, and thus not on the medal bar. But most of these guys would have had other awards, such as peacetime orders from other German states. Regards, Dave

Yes, that is him. He received the Iron Cross 2nd Class in 1914 as an Oberveterinär d.L. im Res.-Drag.-Rgt. Nr. 2. From the Tierärztliche Rundschau of 27.12.1914: Der Tierarzt Dr. Richard Kantorowicz in Charlottenburg, Oberveterinär d. L. im Reserve-Dragoner-Rgt. Nr. 2 ist mit einer schweren Kniegelenksentzündung aus dem Felde zurückgekehrt, welche er sich im Westen vor einigen Monaten schon akquirierte. Nachdem nun aber das Regiment nach dem Osten versetzt wurde und infolge der kolossalen Anstrengung eine Schonung nicht mehr möglich war, steigerte sich die Erkrankung so sehr, dass ein weiteres Verbleiben im Felde unmöglich wurde. Kollege Kantorowicz befindet sich z. Zt. in häuslicher Pflege, hofft aber in einigen Wochen wieder in das Feld rücken zu können. From the Tierärztliche Rundschau of 3.10.1915: Tierarzt Dr. Richard Kantorowicz in Charlottenburg, Stabs- u. Regimentsveterinär im Feldartillerie-Rgt. Nr. 217 ist wegen eines Knöchelbruchs aus dem Felde zurückgekehrt und befindet sich z. Zt. in häuslicher Pflege. Also, it does not appear in his rank list entry, but according to the Tierärztliche Rundschau of 17.4.1911, he received the Knight 2nd Class of the Württemberg Friedrichsorden. The award was also noted in Der Tierarzt and the Monatshefte für Praktische Tierheilkunde.

It seems odd that a Bavarian tailor wouldn't have Jubilee Medal ribbon stock, and the colors are reversed, as noted above. I suppose a northern tailor might have been asked to make a southern-style ribbon bar, and didn't have the right stock. The lack of a long service might be possible if he had a Schnalle from before 1913, and didn't bother to swap it for a medal/cross. I still have two problems, though. First, even without Anhalt, that's five state awards - Bavaria, Prussia, Hamburg, Baden and one of the Mecklenburg Grand Duchies - for an enlisted man. I suppose it is remotely possible for a Hamburg-born Bavarian who served in both 8.IR and 21.IR, but that's really a stretch. Second, it seems odd for someone who was serving in 1897 and 1905-06, and was receiving multiple decorations from multiple states, to be only an Unteroffizier ohne Portepee. That's who received the MVK 3rd Class with Crown and Swords. Unless those are supposed to be gilt swords, in which case he'd be one of the handful of Feldwebelleutnants who received the 1st Class with Crown and Swords after already having the 1st Class with Swords. It might be good, but there are too many questions which require creative answers, and at some point, too many is too many.

On Paul's ribbon bar, #5 appears to be the Braunschweig House Order, maybe the Verdienstkreuz or Ehrenzeichen, rather than the Baden DA, which after 1854 should have narrow red edge stripes. The precedence still bugs me, since both the RAO Medal and the AEZ should rank ahead of any DA, and I can't think of any blue ribbon that would take precedence over the RAO/AEZ. Maybe a Navy petty officer, native to Saxe-Meiningen, who got the Henry the Lion before the war while serving on the SMS Braunschweig and got the Baden Merit Medal on the Karl Friedrich ribbon during the war while serving on the SMS Baden. That makes the order of the last three war-peace-war, but it's also alphabetical by state. Another possibility is a Saxe-Meiningen native NCO in Königin Augusta Garde-Grenadier-Regt. Nr. 4. Many members of Regiment Augusta received the Henry the Lion in 1913 for services during the wedding of Ernst August Herzog von Braunschweig and Viktoria Luise von Preußen. And since the regimental Chef of GGR 4 was the Grand Duchess of Baden, many GGR 4 officers and men received Baden awards during the war. In fact, GGR 4 may be the most common "peacetime Braunschweig/wartime Baden but no wartime Braunschweig" combination. Jani, it does seem that the Baden ribbon was often used as a "close enough" substitute by tailors who did not have the Finnish ribbon in stock. I even have a medal bar where they appear to have used it for the Cross of Liberty 3rd Class, which makes even less sense:

The thing I can't account for is why more than one source would ahev the same misprint. Perhaps the editor of the DOA simply looked in the older Medicinal-Kalendar for the full name, but then we have to wonder where the Medicinal-Kalendar got the name from. That 1912 IR 111 Stammliste sounds like it would be useful. I only have the 1902 list, which lacks detail. Does it have fuller bios? I have a number of gaps in the annotations to the Jubilee Medal list, especially birthdates/places. I am also curious, though I don't know what a Stammliste would say about it, about what happened to Karl Vahlkampf, who was "auß. abg." between the 1910 and 1911 RLs. Dave

What's in a name? Or in this case, a bunch of them? There was a Dr. Thiele who served successively with IR 111, FAR 35, FAR 37 and 2.Division. He was Divisions-Arzt of the 2.ID when the war started, and ended up as a Generalarzt a.D. But different sources have different Vornamen. According to the 1903 Reichs-Medicinal-Kalender für Deutschland, he was "Heinrich Leopold Johann". This is the same as in the Deutschen Ordens-Almanach, which has him as "Heinr. L. Joh.". I cannot find a medical dissertation for anyone by this name. Every other source says his name was Werner. Carl Heinrich Werner, to be specific. The list of recipients of the Orden vom Zähringer Löwen in the Hof- und Staatshandbuch des Großherzogtums Baden says "Dr. Werner Thiele". The Prussian Ordensliste lists his Roter-Adler-Orden under "Dr. Thiele, Werner". The Baden Jubilee Medal list from IR 111 says "Carl Heinrich Werner". The Jahresverzeichnis der deutschen Hochschulschriften has Werner Thiele receiving his Dr.med. in 1888 from Kiel. His dissertation listed in the Index-Catalogue of the Library of the Surgeon-General's Office, US Army confirms that this is Carl Heinrich Werner, born in 1864. And Das Offizierkorps des Infanterie-Regiments Markgraf Ludwig Wilhelm (3. Badisches) Nr. 111 also says "Werner". He is not listed in the 1919 address book for Insterburg, home of FAR 37 and 2.Div., and I can't find any from when he went to FAR 37 up to the war. I don't have a Stammliste for either of these FARs, and I don't even know if there is one. So the weight of evidence seems to point to Werner as the correct name, but I cannot account for the DOA and the Medicinal-Kalendar. Any thoughts? Or other sources I haven't seen? Thanks, Dave

Unit is probably not identifiable at this point. Probably a medical officer, like a Stabsarzt or Stabsvet. Possibly a Beamter in the Etappe like a Post- or Telegraphinspektor or Intendanturrat. These were the typical recipients of the Franz Joseph Orden on the ribbon of the Bravery Medal.

I have no idea what it is for, but as stated, it is from the Finnish Bar Association. And, yes, it was founded in 1919. I am a member of the New York State Bar, but no one gave me a medal

The bar is post-1934, so Prussian precedence rules wouldn't apply, although many veterans still followed them. Under precedence rules in the Third Reich, peacetime awards all came after the Honor Cross for Combatants.

Hi David, The book is Die Königlich Hannoversche Armee auf ihrem letzten Waffengange im Juni 1866, by Viktor v. Diebitsch, not Debisch. Here is the only mention I see of this Schwarz in the book, at number 182:

To confirm, Sgt. Leonhard Nürnberger did receive the 1870 EK2 along with his Karl Friedrich MVM. Since there's a Centenary Medal, the bar dates after 1897, so the 25-year oakleaves are also missing, if they were ever mounted. The Kriegsteilnehmer-Ehrenkreuz and the Bavarian ribbons probably don't belong with the medal bar, though they could have belonged to a relative.

Here is his entries from the 1886/87 Court and State Handbook and the 1888 rank list. I suppose he might have gotten other awards between thess publications and his death, but this should be a start. He also certainly had a bunch of commemorative medals and the like which aren't included in rank lists and court and state handbooks. I'm not sure where you'd find a list of those.

According to Nimmergut, it is supposed to be blue. Also, the version for general merit, which as I said above was established in 1892, was revoked in 1902 (Ghzgl. Reg.-Blatt Nr. 1902/15, s.87ff, 30.4.1902). So that version only existed for those 10 years. I should have checked all the statutes before replying. Dave

The version without the 4-pointed enameled star between the arms was established in 1892 (Ghzgl. Reg.-Blatt Nr. 1892/25, s.203ff, 8.10.1892). It was a version for general merit, although I do not know what the actual difference was. The 1892 statutes say the regular version would be, from then on, awarded for merit to the grand ducal house or for the welfare of the land. Rank lists, court and state handbooks, and the Deutsche Ordens-Almanach do not distinguish among the different versions, so I have no idea how one would know which version was awarded.