peter monahan

"Coffee - HOT" Making the world safer for idiots!

Here is another photograph of the flag to which Stephen refers above, which was of course in the previous photograph as well.

Patrick Oh, that's lovely! Clearly you have a large collection room to display these. And an understanding partner?

The crown all by itself is odd for a regimental badge. It looks from the photo to be copper rather than brass/bronze. is that the case, or a function of light plus tarnish? If copper, I'd think civilian not British Army but either way I'd tend to horse tack or some form of belting rather than an officer's cross belt, as the fastenings don't look right for a cross belt plate, which had hooks or stubs on the back to fix them in one spot on the belt. This would slide if it were worn on a shoulder belt and regimental waist belts are rare, I think, before the 1830s.

You might try AbeBooks or its equivalent for the SAHR books. It's amazing what's out there, if one has deep pockets. peter

I'd tend to agree with Paul -possible but unlikely. The issues you point out, Jeff, seem to suggest a put together group as well. Sorry!

It's nice to be the only local expert - snagged a few bargains myself that way back in the day: "$20.00 and you don't even know what it is! Take $10.00?" That was for a hallmarked sterling badge to the Surma Valley Light Horse - a very stylized 'SVLH', at a very minor show in southern Ontario years ago.

I told Stephen in a private conversation that the members would leap to the challenge of identifying the various veterans in the photo. Well done, Ulsterman! I am assuming that the cross Brophy wears next to the Fenian Raid Medal is some sort of shooting award, as that 'iron cross' configuration seems to have been popular for both military and civilian shooting awards on both sides of the Atlantic. Anyone else have thoughts on that?

Paul I got the reference - used here too - but was, as we colonials say 'yanking your chain'. Sort of like pulling your leg but from a safer distance! I figured you knew the s & HK were Sikhs but thought some of the other gora log might not. I envy you the LSGC. In fact, I envy anybody who has the funds to buy medals. I sold mine for various good reasons - needed good binocs and a scope for birding, had a mortgage and 3 kids and so on. Didn't really miss them for years, but now when I see the DNW catalogue I drool again. Happy Holidays. Peter

As you say, Paul. One of the joys of collecting to the IA. I'm currently working on a small museum exhibit on Indian troops in France in 1914-15 - 40,000 of the 100,000 Imperial troops in the BEF were from the IA and the vast majority of those Indians. A number of the bravery awards, including at least one VC were awarded to 'Sepoy', or more usually 'Jemadar' or 'Risaldar' of the 'XXth Punjabis/Cavalry/Battery attached to the YYth...' Makes searching the records, few as they are, even more fun. Peter

Whoa! Good one, Paul.

Odulf is correct, I believe. The very long tail on the helmet is a mark of the later patterns. The Boer War and WWI helmets are much closer to being round - oval shaped but closer to an egg shape than this one.

The interesting thing about this medal is that the 2nd Battlion of the 25th Punjabis was disbanded in 1922, as part of a major reorganization of the Indian Army. Presumably Punjab Singh was transferred to another unit, either the 1st Battalion of the 25th or another regiment entirely but added the third clasp to his already named medal. Oddly, as they had in theory been disbanded, Gordon's British Battles and Medals lists the 2.25th as being entitled to the Waziristan 1921-24 bar. The Third Afghan War was a major campaign, which lasted from May to August 1919. Afghan tribes had been stirred up by the fact that Britain had recently fought Turkey, home to a major spiritual leader of Islam, and by rumours that British losses in WWI were so severe that she would no longer be able to defend India's North West Frontier against tribal attacks. 12,500 medals were struck for this campaign with the bar Afghanistan N.W.F. 1919. The bar Waziristan 1919-21 was awarded for various punitive expeditions against the Tochi and Wana clans of the Waziri tribe and the Mahsud tribesmen, between May 1919 and January 1921. Unfortunately Gordon is not very good on Indian infantry and does not list the 2/25th as present at any of the actions. Clealry an omission but one which makes it impossible to easily determine where they served in that period. The over all number of these bars would have been in the hundreds Waziristan 1921-24 covers a large number of small garrisons which were involved in many small actions between Dec. 1921 and March 1924.

Paul What kind of shape is Granny in? I don't actually have a RGA medal to the Honk Kong and Singapore Battalion, who I assume you know were Sikhs, not Chinese, but I am shy a grandmother, so... maybe we can talk.

Yes, Stephen, that was fascinating! How did you happen to have it to hand, or did you look it up for this post? Curious in Alliston, Peter

I once owned a lovely group of 7 medals, all silver, though two bronze medals were missing. He was a Risaldar Major of Indian cavalry and there are a number of photographs of him taken over the years of his service. One, taken shortly after WWI and just before his retirement in 1922, shows that he was wearing, in an official portrait, in uniform, his Royal Victorian Order medal after all his campaign medals [Afghan Medal, 1908 IGS, WWI trio]. Clearly, he felt that reflected the proper order of importance and to Gehenna with the official order of precedence. And that is how they were displayed. Wearing one's medals incorrectly would have been a chargeable offence - 'out of uniform' - and I don't believe a long service NCO and honorary officer would have let his wife sew them up wrong way about. I can easily see Chris' argument: "Sure, you did 2,3,4 years in the trenches. I did 12 years altogether!" We've all seen men who have improved their medals - the ex Legion fellow recently discussed being a classic example. Why wouldn't a veteran likewise 'correct' his medals to fit his view of their importance, symbolism of whatever. I was displaying some medals for a TV crew on Sunday and was very tempted to put the reverse of the Victory Medal up, so that the "Great War for Civilization" was visible. Depending on one's turn of mind, a true statement or the ultimate irony. Don't know which way Fitton swung on that question, but I'll bet he had an opinion! And may well have wanted to remind people of it whenever it came up! I'd vote for 'He meant it so.' Peter

Sad, but as someone said in the much earlier discussion, this too is human!

Shams Sorry you've had no response to date. I'd help if I could! Unfortunately, given the idiosyncrasies of the regiments of the British Army, there may be a number of variations and some were undoubtedly known only to the regimental tailors and the men who wore them. Your best bet for the latter part of the period are contemporary photos, with paintings and other illustrations for the earlier decades. I see you've already checked the Victorian Wars web site. Afraid I haven't any immediate suggestions other than above, but I'll think on it. If there is one or a few regiments, consider contacting regimental museums. Most are very happy to have people asking intelligent questions, though given typical staffing answers aren't always swift! Peter

Richard Thanks for the bio.! Sounds an interesting life out there right now. I assume the Afghanis you're protecting are Army or Police types who need protecting from the Taliban, or have I got that completely wrong? Many eons ago I was much taken with Rudyard Kipling's Indian tales and that began a lifelong interest in the British Indian Army and the North West Frontier [now in Pakistan and still a frontier, of course]. However I suspect I'll never get to see the Khyber Pass and perhaps just as well! I'm guessing that the reality on the ground these days is far less romantic than the history books would lead one to believe! I take it, from your interest in the Staffs that you're with the 3rd Mercians out there? Good luck to you, mate, and Giod bless! Peter

I'd be leery of it - maybe a 100 year old commemorative or maybe the product of a workshop in the mysterious east - Russia or Hungary - and done up last week with some old screws added for artistic verisimilitude. Sadly that sort of thing is becoming very common.

Yeah, like England and Ireland. Or Wales and Scotland, only they're separated by a bunch of... OOpps! Outside voice again.

Greendick Indeed a very interesting piece, and puzzle. I'd say Mervyn's theory is a plausible one, though some of the truly odd stuff coming out of workshops in that part of the world it may also be bazaar work. The rooster is a sun symbol in that part of the world, apparently, and the Staffs not and crown may simply have appealed to the artist. Either way, fascinating item but not, as mentioned, one you want to have in your pocket if the MPs come calling!

And as he races towards her, he sees a banana peel on the pavement. He grins, leaps over it... and disappears down an open man hole. [idea stolen from C. Chaplin]

My congratulations to the winners as well. All well deserved. The comments made by the judges in realation to many of the photos will be published shortly - meant to have done so by now but life intruded! The issue of previous entries being re-submitted did come up but, as noted, was not banned by the current rules. Something which will be revisited for next time. Paja - thanks for posting the previous winners! Again, well done to all who submitted. Peter

"D'ya think they might be compensating for something, Donkey?"