Schießplatzmeister

Hello Saschaw: I believe that the third medal is either a St. Georgs-Medaille (Jubil?umsmedaille) or a Lifesaving Medal. It is difficult to determine which as it is difficult to detemine which ribbon is there, but I am leaning more toward the lifesaving medal. If anyone has a genuine Bavarian Lifesaving Medal, I would be more than happy to purchase it for EUR 650!!! Gru?, "SPM"

Dear Saschaw: Thank you very much for your astute observation regarding Friedrich I and his Orders. The mystery continues then as to who these ribbons actually belonged to. Best regards, "SPM"

Wow Saschaw!: I never would have believed it until now! I guess that this just proves again that sometimes pieces/groups that don't meet an established "norm" are not necessarily counterfeit or altered. Recipients didn't always follow precident and sometimes made-up their own mounted groups in whatever fashion they pleased (or could afford!). Simply amazing! Do you know who the recipient of the TKM in the photo is? I have the "Goldenes Ehrenbuch", send me a PM if you have a name. Now a believer! "SPM"

Hello Vatjan: Although this is not my area of specific interest (there are others here at the Club such as Stogieman with a great deal of experience with these) I can without a doubt state that the badge pictured is a forgery of relatively modern manufacture. It was made via casting. I hope that your friend didn't pay too much for it. You can easily find worse examples, but a great many copies/forgeries are now made which are very difficult to identify as such (i.e. see Medalnet's article regarding electrotype copies at www.medalnet.net). Things are so bad in this area now, that I would assume that 95% or more of ALL badges encountered on the market are undoubtedly copies/forgeries, with the remaining percentage merely of unknown provenance considered to probably be copies. Only with undisputed provenance could one consider a badge as original (or if it undisputably matches known originals). A "Certificate of Authenticity" is usually worthless also! Best regards, "SPM"

Hello Westfale: Here is a photograph of a Kriegsverdienstmedaille in my collection. The quality is not good (I don't have my digital camera today), but it is better than the photograph listed in Beyreiss. I hope that this helps. Gru?, "SPM"[attachmentid=46942]

Hello Mike: A very interesting EK that you have there. Rau is a rather common Baden and Bavarian name. I can't find him in the 1914 Deutsche Rangliste or the 1914 Bavarian Milit?r-Handbuch. A fast search showed that he was not a recipient of the Prussian HHO knight with swords and I didn't find him as a recipient of any Baden or Bavarian Orders (although I don't have a listing for the MVO IVth with swords-24,000+ awards made). I may have missed a listing for him, but his EKI may have been his highest award as a Reserve Lt. in Artillery. He probably went to active duty status in 1914 or was a field commission, and then was killed, wounded, or cashed-out when the war ended. A very nice piece. I bet that Rich Research can probably find some information on him from the 1926 listing of Officers who served from 1914-18. Best regards, "SPM"

Hello Tom: All of the 1864/70 groups that I have in my collection have bronze backings. The majority of those that I have seen are also of bronze. I have seen period galvanized steel backings, but they are certainly less common. The 1870/71 is an old copy (not made by the Berlin Mint) as evidenced by the this wire suspension loop soldered to the planchet. The edge certainly does not state "from captured cannon" in German either. Look at the suspension for the Alsen cross in this group. Official awarded medals have this type of suspension. These old copies (replacement pieces) were sometimes worn on medal groupings but are certainly of lesser-value/desirability to collectors than the awarded pieces. You are right, the 1895 EKII 25 year anniversary oak-leaves were a privately-purchased optional item. Most veterans purchased them though (the lack of them just points to something more unusual, a small detail, but one with the other facts at hand that in summary show that this piece is a forgery). Best regards, "SPM"

Hello Folks: The Baden group looks fine to me and I have no problem with the attribution of the group to a female recipient. This group was awarded to a nurse or most likely. Yes, the suspension rings look like they were modified to have the medals mounted, but I don't see a problem with this. The Baden award looks to be made of "Kriegsmetal" and the zinc has oxidized and is "blooming" through the thin gilding wash. Thus the dull grey hue to the piece. The Prussian 2nd Class Red Cross award is also a late-war item that is silver plated. The only question that I have is why the 3rd Class was not displayed, as I have seen both grades worn together for female recipients. Although I personally do not have such a group with a non-combattant "Hindenburg cross", a photo of a female recipient wearing one, or a document for a cross to a female recipient, I believe that the statutes allowed awards to female recipients. They are simply not seen that often because they are rather scarce. Best regards, "SPM"

Hello Everyone: This is a fine example of a fraudulently assembled grouping. To summarize all of the problems as noted above: The backing as Stogieman points out is made from NEW galvanized sheet stock. Groups from this era usually use bronze backings. The ribbons are almost all of NEW nylon (The EK, 1870, 1866, and Centennial medal ribbons certainly are) stock. As Medalnet pointed out, the 1866 campaign medal ribbon is without doubt of new manufacture. The stitching style for the ribbons is not consistent with known originals (they were simply not constructed in this fashion). The 1870 campaign medal is NOT an awarded item, but is an OLD copy. The EKII is not an awarded piece and is probably a decent-quality MODERN copy. Yes, an 1864 campaign medal is missing from the group, but a more glaring problem is the fact that the 1870 medal is next the the EKII in precidence. Usually, the Duppel and Alsen medals would come next (this was not a hard and fast rule however). Also as someone pointed out, there is a lack of 1895 "25" year anniversary oak-leaves for the EKII (He was around in 1897 supposedly to get the Centennial, so why didn't he get the eichenlauben?). A lack of battle bars for the 1870 is NOT a problem as not everyone put them on their ribbons if qualified for them. As we can see, there is a lot WRONG with this bar. The ONLY things right are the original medals (other than the EKII and 1870). The group is a fraud and only worth the value of the genuine medals. Best regards, "SPM"

Dear Matthijs: Welcome to the world of Imperial German Orders and medals. I took a similar road as you when I first started. I collected 3rd Reich items at first, but got quickly frustrated with the fact that in order for my collection to expand, I had to look for items where most that I encountered on the market I believed to be forgeries. I then also saw some beautiful Imperial groupings with Orders and my interest grew. I have no regrets leaving the 3rd Reich collecting arena. Rick makes some excellent points! I would like to add a few "words of wisdom". Note that there are now copies/forgeries/counterfeits of many Imperial German Orders and decorations, from the common to the rare. Some of the forgeries are of excellent workmanship. The are also very reputable dealers, auction houses, collectors etc. who routinely sell items which are in MY OPINION forgeries, but which have come to be accepted as genuine. I believe that most of these transaction are innocent, but there are also persons who knowingly sell garbage routinely. Start with common items and don't pay too much for them. Let your instincts guide you as to what you like. Remember, common items will never go up much in value, but they are more likely to be genuine. Look at all of the pieces that you can in person (collections, shows, etc.). Look at how items are made and study how the items were made (i.e. there are excellent sources on how die-struck coins and medals are made). Be 100% happy with everything that you purchase before you put your money down. Stay away from Pilot badges, PLM's, and submarine badges in general. Study on-line listings of items as much as possible. One thing to purchase right away is a copy of the "OEK" (Orden & Ehrenzeichen, 1800-1945, Deutschland-Katalog 2005/2006) by J?rg Nimmergut. This is a good overview of what is out there and it can be used as a guide regarding values. This guide is available on German Ebay. Welcome and best of luck! Most importantly, have fun collecting, as this is what it is all about! Best regards, "SPM"

Hello everyone: The seller is commenting upon the fact that the medals are marked by the die-sinker House-medallist and Sculptor Max von Kawaczynski in Berlin in this instance and is not referring to the recipient of the group. On some medals the name is spelled-out, and on some (i.e. some SEHO Verdienstmedaillen) it is simply "M. v. K". I hope that this clarifies the situation a bit! Best regards, "SPM"

Hello Gentlemen: A very interesting photograph. A very good guess regarding the badge. It IS Bavarian, but it is on the incorrect side for a pilot's badge. The award is a Bavarian "Erinnerungszeichen an die Goldene Hochzeit des K?nigspaares" (Commemorative award for the Golden Anniversary of the Royal Couple) awarded in 1918. A badge not often encountered in photographs. The fellow was obviously a very patriotic Bavarian to wear this award. He probably stopped wearing it a few years later in his career as the political climate changed! Best regards, "SPM"

Dear Daniel: Thank you for showing us your ribbons! I have identical samples of ribbon that you show in post #21 and in post #23. You are right about the barettes, that was a very popular style during the early to mid-1800's. I am fascinated by these ribbons and I find them rather uncommon. WWI examples are not rare, but are not too often seen either. These pieces are a fascinating diversion for the ribbon collector. Who ever thought that a few inches of silk could signify historical social status and brave deeds to the extent that these little gems do! Gru?, "SPM"

Dear Wildcard and Daniel: Thanks for your comments regarding the ribbon. Rick Research wins the prize (he has AMAZING powers which us mere mortals can only dream of obtaining!) for guessing who a probable recipient was. The ribbon belonged to Grand Duke Friedrich I of Baden (or possibly another important male member of the Grand Ducal family). Unfortunately, there is no way to be certain. This ribbon came from Autengruber a few years ago, about the same time that Baden Grand Ducal awards started appearing on the market. So, if one puts this together, it is likely that Friedrich I was the recipient. Yes Daniel, I am very interested in more examples, so let us see them! I have two more examples, but can't post them (I went for quality instead of quantity and used-up my image allowance!). The first example consists of the Baden House Order of Fidelity, Order of the Zahringen Lion, Russia, St. Vladimir Order, and Russia, St. Anne Order. The second example consists of the Baden Order of Fidelity, Baden Military Karl Friedrich Merit Order, and Order of the Zahringen Lion. These all came from the same source and were undoubtedly from the Baden Grand Ducal Household, but alas, there is no way to be certain that they belonged to Grand Duke Friedrich I. Best regards, "SPM"

Excellent job Wildcard! I will consider you the winner as we have no other takers! Position #5 is probably a Hessian Ludwig's Order however. It is probable that there is nothing as lowly as a Knight's badge that was part of this grouping, the context leads me to believe that the recipient probably had Grand Cross badges of the listed Orders. OK, Rick and Stogieman, you may now participate! I am beyond my "per post or global limit", so the other photos will have to wait (sorry). Thanks! "SPM"

Dear Rick: Thanks for correcting my disoriented image. It looks much better now! I will post the other two (2) ribbons ASAP (starting tomorrow) as I have used-up all of my image space for today. Thanks, "SPM"

[attachmentid=38589] Hello everyone: Here is my contribution. This is a combination of seven (7) awards. It is 43.5mm wide, and unfortunately not very long, but interesting none-the-less. Sorry, but it should really be turned-around 180 degrees to be viewed properly in the order of precidence. OK, let's have a contest, who can tell me first what the awards are (I know, but thought it would be fun for others to guess)? Please no entries by Stogieman or Rick Research or their immediate families! Rick, here is where you come in, please tell me to whom the ribbon belonged. I have an idea, but it is just speculation. Note that I have two other examples possibly from the same recipient which I will post. Thanks, "SPM" (still around, but busy at work!)

Hello Paul: Rick is right (as always!). It looks like a long-serving soldier's group. I would surmise that due to the type of mount it is from the WWI era. Also, there is not 1870 campaign medal (as an 1870 EK recipient would have received). There is also no WWI service honor cross. So, we have a group after the 1870/71 conflict and before 1934 (the fellow probably didn't make it that long). The last medal of course is the 1897 Centennial medal, so he was in the service in 1897. He did no time in the colonies. To summarize, I vote for a 1914 EKII, and a Prussian long-service decoration for 15 years of service as he was probably a senior NCO with all of the time that he had in (1897-1914 minimum). A very nice group. The mounting and assembly look a bit "homemade" which adds a bit of charm to it. I'm sure that this old timer was an asset to his squad on patrol. He obviously did something special to get the life-saving award (either before or during the war). I wonder is he made it through the war? Best regards, "SPM"

Hello Rick: This is a very nice early bar. I have some ideas regarding what was on it at some point. The first position was undoubtely for a W?rttemberg 1866 campaign medal. As far as the service decoration possibilities from this era, it is unlikely that he was an officer (active or reserve) because of the lack of much else there, but he may have been a long-serving NCO which would would have made him eligible for the 21 year service cross. I have never seen W?rttemberg pre-1913 enlisted long service clasps made to be suspended from a ribbon and enameled (like the Prussians sometimes did), so this answer is probably feasible. Of course, 1848-49 campaign service is a possibility, but I think that this would be too remote and unlikely, and as you note this group was assembled at a later date, but is for pre-1870 service. I believe that this fellow came on board after 1849 and was out before 1870. Best regards, "SPM"

Dear Stogieman: A great observation on your part as to the rarity of the piece in the grouping shown above! I believe that I have a possible answer as to why the Saxon mounted group of four that is pictured above is so rare. First of all, the piece in the first position is the Saxon Albert Order "Kleinkreuz" or "Ehrenkreuz" (as it was known after 1858). There were only 362 awards (Weber, Arnold, Kiel)/386awards (Roth) without swords made! The exact number with swords is not known, but it can only be a handful as I do not believe that any are noted in the common literature. This piece is a true rarity. It was undoubtedly awarded during the 1863/4 or 1866 conflicts as the context of the grouping shows. I doubt that one of these will be seen again during our lifetimes after this is sold and goes into a private collection! Oh, if only I didn't have a mortgage payment, car payments, a spouse, children, etc. Thanks, "SPM"

Hello Joe: These are really great cards! I think that interesting items like this are too often overlooked. I find the card showing the encirclement of the Russian detachment in the Carpathians most interesting. This is a soldier's worst nightmare. Fighting on a mountainside on a narrow trail in the snow with enemy forces above AND below. The chances of surviving this sure look remote for them! I'm glad that you found these for a good price at the SOS where in my opinion too many things were terribly overpriced. A good find! Best regards, "SPM"

Hello again everyone: I must appologize, for in my haste, I listed 18 GMVK awards for the 1. Garde-Regt. z. Fu? for WWI. There were actually only 16 awards for WWI, and there were 2 awards in 1866! I will now list the rest of the WWI awards for the "Independent" Garde Divisions (some of which may have been considered part of the "Garde du Corps" during WWI at various times). Note that I believe most of these units were not considered "Garde du Corps" except possibly the Garde-F?silier-Regt. and the Lehr-Inf.-Regt. which I believe were part of the 1. Garde Division prior to the Weltkrieg. Garde-F?silier-Regt. : 5 5. Garde-Regt. z. Fu?: 11 Garde-Gren.-Regt. Nr. 5: 6 6. Garde-Inf.-Regt.: 9 7. Garde-Inf.-Regt. : 7 Lehr-Inf.-Regt. : 2 Note that I have not included awards for the various other units attached to the 1st and 2nd Garde-Divisions such as Kavallerie, Feldartillerie, Fu?artillerie, etc., etc. It is interesting to note the years of award for the total of 128 WWI awards for the above-listed units and the 1. Garde-Division and 2. Garde-Division: 1914: 0 1915: 0 1916: 0 1917: 12 1918: 116 Does this indicate an increase in brave deeds toward the end of the war? More troops in battle? I would surmise that the same deed that earned a soldier an EKII in late 1914, would earn him a GMVK in 1918. Of course, in order to be eligible for the GMVK, I believe that a soldier first had to have received the EKII and EKI in theory (I am sure there were instances where awards were made simultaneously for extremely brave deeds!). Just like the Royal Hohenzollern House Order Knight with swords awards for Officers, in 1917 and 1918, the "flood gates" opened. It seems as though political/patriotic considerations made the odds much more favorable for awards to be granted as the war continued. We must keep in mind that this doesn't diminish the importance or esteem of the award however! Best regards, "SPM"

Hello again Les: I have of course the names of the recipients and the dates concerning their GMVK awards (has nothing to do with the date of the specific action which led to the award however!). I have both volumes of "Das Ehrenbuch der Garde. Die preu?ische Garde im Weltkrieg 1914-1919" coming shortly. So, if any further information is needed, don't hesitate to ask. Best regards, "SPM"

Dear Les: By the way, that is a really nice group because the GMVK appears to be genuine! It is a piece made for a group for everyday wear of course, but genuine pieces of these are not common at all. Usually, one runs across various and sundry MODERN copies which are garbage. I can't wait to see the reverse of this particular piece. Thanks, "SPM"

Hello everyone: Here are some numbers regarding the total WWI GMVK awards to the 1st Garde Division and the 2nd Garde Division: 1st Garde-Division (64 total): 1. Garde-Regt. z. Fu?: 18 2. Garde-Regt. z. Fu?: 16 3. Garde-Regt. z. Fu?: 19 4. Garde-Regt. z. Fu?: 11 2nd Garde-Division (26 total): Garde-Gren.-Regt. Nr. 1: 2 Garde-Gren.-Regt. Nr. 2: 7 Garde-Gren.-Regt. Nr. 3: 8 Garde-Gren.-Regt. Nr. 4: 9 Thus, we have a total of 90 awards for these two Divisions under the Garde-Corps-Depot. Unfortunately, any indentification of a specific individual who could have been the recipient of the award shown above would be impossible without more specific information. This information is from Herr Geile's 1997 publication which shows awards broken-down by unit (most helpful!). Other resorces are Ophaus (1936) which is an alphabetical listing, and Patzwall (1986) which lists the award recipients by date of award and alphabetically. There is another book by Nickel (1938), and one by Fischer (1960), but I do not have a copy of those. I hope that this information is helpful! Best regards, "SPM"