Schießplatzmeister

Dear EuRob: Your piece is counterfeit as pointed-out by others. What is interesting is that the seam on the edge is a tell-tale sign of an electrotype (although I can't be 100% certain without a first-hand visual inspection). I have run into many older electrotype copies of Imperial German medals on the market. Some of them are of rather common medals such as this. I do not think these are made recently as there are cheaper ways to make superb castings with today's technology. See Andreas Schulze-Ising's excellent article regarding electrotypes at www.medalnet.net. Good luck finding a genuine issued piece. As these medals are becoming more popular, copies are to be found in abundance (not to mention the campaign bars that are appearing!). Send this one back as fast as you can! Best regards, "SPM"

Dear Rick: I don't recall this group coming up for auction yet. It may still be awaiting sale, or George may have sold it at an OMSA convention as he sometimes did with groups that he couldn't identify the recipient for. Unfortunately, most of his friends who were faithful convention goers who would remember seeing it have also now passed-on (Neil, Eric, and Tony). I do not attend OMSA every year, but go when convenient. Perhaps Wildcard can remember seeing it (if it was every offered at a convention). Best regards, "SPM" p.s.: Rick, I thank you for all of your efforts to salvage what you can of the invaluble information that undoubtedly mostly would have ended-up in trash cans. Although your toils may go unrewarded (at least financially), there are many of us out here that appreciate it!

Hello again David: For the RAO book, only the year and last name, title, and rank/position are listed. Best regards, "SPM"

Hello David: The day, month, and year of award are listed, along with the title, and first and last name of the recipient. Also listed is the recipient's position/rank. In a vert few cases the first name is left out presumably because it was not readable in the original rolls or was left off of the rolls. Best regards, "SPM"

Hello again: According to the 1914 Bavarian Military Handbook, Moritz Wibel was a Major (promoted March 3. 1911) with the following awards: EKII (1870) Jubil?ums=Medaille Kriegsdendm?nze f?r 1870-71 aus Bronze Armee=Denkzeichen 1866 Dienstauszeichnungs=Kreuz 2. Klasse (24 year service cross) Preu?ische Erinnerungs=Medaille (Centennial Medal) There was also a Captain Moritz Wibel listed who was born in 1875 (perhaps the son of our 1870-71 veteran). Best regards, "SPM"

Hello Tom: A great pair of documents that you have here! The best that I can make out is the following (a real challenge to my eyes too!). Your first document is to K?niglich Bayerische Hauptmann Moritz Wibel, 3te Infanterie=Regiment "Prinz Carl von Bayern" The second document is to Seconde=Leutnant Oscar Haunit, 7te. Ostpreu?isches Infanterie=Regiment No. 44. It looks like Wibel is listed in the 1914 Milit?r-Handbuch (more on this later). Although I have complete histories of the war, it would take several hours to give you a breakdown of the campaign activities for each regiment and unfortunately, I do not have time at this moment to do so. Perhaps I can post more information later. I have never seen preliminary documents issued during the time of the actual war akin to those that are seen for Weltkrieg (WWI). It seems that ALL of the EK documents were dated the same (19. Januar 1873), with Officers getting the type that you show and with enlisted troops getting a smaller Besitz-Zeugni? without the Royal/Imperial signature of Wilhelm I. The only exceptions that I have seen are a letter from Wilhelm I to General of Infantry v. Goeben awarding an EKI dated 18. October 1870 and a Cabinet-Order dated 9. M?rz 1871 awarding an EKII to Major General Krug v. Nidda upon his retirement (both shown in Raksch). Congratulations regarding your great acquistions! Best regards, "SPM"

Hello everyone: An interesting photograph from a time of difficulty on the homefront. I believe that the phrase "Ohne Bezugsschein" refers to the lack of "Bezugsscheine der Reichsbekleidungsstelle und Lebensmittelausweis" which was a government-issued document listing all members of a household and food rations that the household was entitled to. Without one of these, surely, there wasn't much to eat (only what could be had illegally on the black market in cities, or which could be purchased, begged, or stolen from farmers in rural areas). Therefore, those who didn't qualify may have had to work for a living (in a job such as this!) so that they could get food. Perhaps these women were displaced from areas in the East, were criminals, or were widowed, single, or just extremely poor. This would explain the fact that they don't look very happy to aid the war effort! I wonder how often there was a bit of a problem (an accidental explosion) and a new group had to take over production. All of the sudden, after looking at this photograph, my job doesn't seem so bad after all! Gru?, "SPM"

Dear Mark: This ribbon combination for Wilhelm II was featured in the "B?nderkatalog" br Krischer and Nimmergut on page 272. The tunic pictured in the book is a different one (in your photo the ribbon stops at the piping and is sewn there, the ribbon on page 272 wraps around the back of the tunic flap), but with the same ribbon combination. The first ribbon is the Bavarian Military Max Joseph Order, then follows the Saxon, MilitarySt. Henry Order, W?rttemberg Military Merit Order, Austria Military Maria Theresia Order, Baden Military Karl Friedrich Merit Order, then the Hanseatic Crosses for Hamburg, Bremen, and L?beck. Based upon the context of the auction, and the fact that another source is confirming that this composite award combination ribbon existed previously, I feel confident that the ribbon was that of the Kaiser. I do not specialize in uniforms, their construction, or how to spot forgeries/alterations, so I can't comment otherwise with authority. An interesting piece of history! I wonder how many just WWI-era uniforms the Kaiser had? I'm sure that he probably had a great many. Best regards, "SPM"

Dear amyagkiy: This interesting item that you have shared with us appears to have a bit of Japanese design influence. So, perhaps someone who is familiar with Japanese Orders and medals could be of some help. It appears to be made from gilded metal (bronze or "pot metal") and is definately made in the post-WWII period. It also doesn't appear to be an official award. But since this isn't my "cup of tea", I will defer to those who specialize in items from that part of the world. Best regards, "SPM"

Dear Saschaw: Thank you for sharing the counterfeit Baden long-service bar with us. A good-quality counterfeit and very scary. Note that an English translation for the word "gepr?gt" is "struck", such as in "die-struck" or "coined". The Ebay seller "raritaetensammlerclub" has some very convincing counterfeit pieces. It is worth paying attention to these as they will undoubtedly start showing-up for sale with various dealers and at shows in the future as mistakes are made and collectors who have purchased these pieces try to unload them. It looks like most folks in Germany anyway know to stay away! Thanks to forums such as this, the criminal (I also have other not-so-nice words for them) forgers, don't have too many places to hide and their schemes can't be as profitable as they were in days-gone-by before the internet. Gru?, "SPM"

Dear EuRob: The cross that you purchased is original and it has an original ribbon. So rest assured regarding that. The question of the "bumps" is an interesting one. Let's explore further. These crosses were cast from Iron, bronze, and "Kriegsmetall" (which was basically a predominantly Zink alloy of whatever non-war essential scrap metal could be located at the time of manufacture). As Kev in Deva points out, the bumps are probably casting flaws. This is not a concern, as many of these highly produced items were not finely finished and quality control was sometimes lacking. Another explanation, is that the cross is made from "Kriegsmetall" that has started to oxidize under the finish, thereby causing "bumps" to form. Usually though, the oxidation can be seen as a white-coloured powder which breaks through the outer finish and appears on the surface in spots. Your cross however has a nice bronze colour to it. It does not appear to be iron either (but if a magnet is attracted to it, it certainly is). So, in summary, I also believe that you have an original bronze cross with casting flaws. I differ a bit with Kev in Deva however regarding counterfeit Imperial German Orders and medals. I have seen some very common items (worth insignificant amounts of money) "copied". Some of these were undoubtedly made after the issue period for veterans and are of lesser quality. I am still astounded from time to time however to find counterfeit "common" awards meant to deceived collectors. So although not ALL have been copied, MANY have been in my opinion. Congratulations regarding your fine purchase! Best regards, "SPM"

Dear Jacky: Excellent observation on your part and a good question. As we can see, men in civillian attire also sometimes wore their awards on "bows". If you notice however, the ribbon ends are squarely finished and not "swallow-tail" cut. This is a slight difference from a bow that a female recipient would wear an award on. I happen to have an 1813 EKII manufactured in the 1830's-40's which is on an old bow. It was probably worn like the award pictured above with civillian attire. I have also seen photos with Hussar soldiers wearing their "Attilla's" that were wearing EKII's on "bows" (there is no button-hole on an Attilla, only a loop for the toggle button!). Best regards, "SPM"

Dear Jason: Your observations and intuition are spot on! The first bar is from an 1870-71 veteran. The 1870 EK and the 1870-71 campaign medal are easy to find (although there are decent-quality forgeries of the EK out there and good pieces are getting a bit expensive). The real mystery is WHICH SEHO medal went in the third position. That is something that we can never be certain about. It would probably be best to take the medals off and be satisfied as having a superb field ribbon bar. Congratulations on your very fine find! Best regards, "SPM"

Hello Saschaw: I believe that the third medal is either a St. Georgs-Medaille (Jubil?umsmedaille) or a Lifesaving Medal. It is difficult to determine which as it is difficult to detemine which ribbon is there, but I am leaning more toward the lifesaving medal. If anyone has a genuine Bavarian Lifesaving Medal, I would be more than happy to purchase it for EUR 650!!! Gru?, "SPM"

Dear Saschaw: Thank you very much for your astute observation regarding Friedrich I and his Orders. The mystery continues then as to who these ribbons actually belonged to. Best regards, "SPM"

Wow Saschaw!: I never would have believed it until now! I guess that this just proves again that sometimes pieces/groups that don't meet an established "norm" are not necessarily counterfeit or altered. Recipients didn't always follow precident and sometimes made-up their own mounted groups in whatever fashion they pleased (or could afford!). Simply amazing! Do you know who the recipient of the TKM in the photo is? I have the "Goldenes Ehrenbuch", send me a PM if you have a name. Now a believer! "SPM"

Hello Vatjan: Although this is not my area of specific interest (there are others here at the Club such as Stogieman with a great deal of experience with these) I can without a doubt state that the badge pictured is a forgery of relatively modern manufacture. It was made via casting. I hope that your friend didn't pay too much for it. You can easily find worse examples, but a great many copies/forgeries are now made which are very difficult to identify as such (i.e. see Medalnet's article regarding electrotype copies at www.medalnet.net). Things are so bad in this area now, that I would assume that 95% or more of ALL badges encountered on the market are undoubtedly copies/forgeries, with the remaining percentage merely of unknown provenance considered to probably be copies. Only with undisputed provenance could one consider a badge as original (or if it undisputably matches known originals). A "Certificate of Authenticity" is usually worthless also! Best regards, "SPM"

Hello Westfale: Here is a photograph of a Kriegsverdienstmedaille in my collection. The quality is not good (I don't have my digital camera today), but it is better than the photograph listed in Beyreiss. I hope that this helps. Gru?, "SPM"[attachmentid=46942]

Hello Mike: A very interesting EK that you have there. Rau is a rather common Baden and Bavarian name. I can't find him in the 1914 Deutsche Rangliste or the 1914 Bavarian Milit?r-Handbuch. A fast search showed that he was not a recipient of the Prussian HHO knight with swords and I didn't find him as a recipient of any Baden or Bavarian Orders (although I don't have a listing for the MVO IVth with swords-24,000+ awards made). I may have missed a listing for him, but his EKI may have been his highest award as a Reserve Lt. in Artillery. He probably went to active duty status in 1914 or was a field commission, and then was killed, wounded, or cashed-out when the war ended. A very nice piece. I bet that Rich Research can probably find some information on him from the 1926 listing of Officers who served from 1914-18. Best regards, "SPM"

Hello Tom: All of the 1864/70 groups that I have in my collection have bronze backings. The majority of those that I have seen are also of bronze. I have seen period galvanized steel backings, but they are certainly less common. The 1870/71 is an old copy (not made by the Berlin Mint) as evidenced by the this wire suspension loop soldered to the planchet. The edge certainly does not state "from captured cannon" in German either. Look at the suspension for the Alsen cross in this group. Official awarded medals have this type of suspension. These old copies (replacement pieces) were sometimes worn on medal groupings but are certainly of lesser-value/desirability to collectors than the awarded pieces. You are right, the 1895 EKII 25 year anniversary oak-leaves were a privately-purchased optional item. Most veterans purchased them though (the lack of them just points to something more unusual, a small detail, but one with the other facts at hand that in summary show that this piece is a forgery). Best regards, "SPM"

Hello Folks: The Baden group looks fine to me and I have no problem with the attribution of the group to a female recipient. This group was awarded to a nurse or most likely. Yes, the suspension rings look like they were modified to have the medals mounted, but I don't see a problem with this. The Baden award looks to be made of "Kriegsmetal" and the zinc has oxidized and is "blooming" through the thin gilding wash. Thus the dull grey hue to the piece. The Prussian 2nd Class Red Cross award is also a late-war item that is silver plated. The only question that I have is why the 3rd Class was not displayed, as I have seen both grades worn together for female recipients. Although I personally do not have such a group with a non-combattant "Hindenburg cross", a photo of a female recipient wearing one, or a document for a cross to a female recipient, I believe that the statutes allowed awards to female recipients. They are simply not seen that often because they are rather scarce. Best regards, "SPM"

Hello Everyone: This is a fine example of a fraudulently assembled grouping. To summarize all of the problems as noted above: The backing as Stogieman points out is made from NEW galvanized sheet stock. Groups from this era usually use bronze backings. The ribbons are almost all of NEW nylon (The EK, 1870, 1866, and Centennial medal ribbons certainly are) stock. As Medalnet pointed out, the 1866 campaign medal ribbon is without doubt of new manufacture. The stitching style for the ribbons is not consistent with known originals (they were simply not constructed in this fashion). The 1870 campaign medal is NOT an awarded item, but is an OLD copy. The EKII is not an awarded piece and is probably a decent-quality MODERN copy. Yes, an 1864 campaign medal is missing from the group, but a more glaring problem is the fact that the 1870 medal is next the the EKII in precidence. Usually, the Duppel and Alsen medals would come next (this was not a hard and fast rule however). Also as someone pointed out, there is a lack of 1895 "25" year anniversary oak-leaves for the EKII (He was around in 1897 supposedly to get the Centennial, so why didn't he get the eichenlauben?). A lack of battle bars for the 1870 is NOT a problem as not everyone put them on their ribbons if qualified for them. As we can see, there is a lot WRONG with this bar. The ONLY things right are the original medals (other than the EKII and 1870). The group is a fraud and only worth the value of the genuine medals. Best regards, "SPM"

Dear Matthijs: Welcome to the world of Imperial German Orders and medals. I took a similar road as you when I first started. I collected 3rd Reich items at first, but got quickly frustrated with the fact that in order for my collection to expand, I had to look for items where most that I encountered on the market I believed to be forgeries. I then also saw some beautiful Imperial groupings with Orders and my interest grew. I have no regrets leaving the 3rd Reich collecting arena. Rick makes some excellent points! I would like to add a few "words of wisdom". Note that there are now copies/forgeries/counterfeits of many Imperial German Orders and decorations, from the common to the rare. Some of the forgeries are of excellent workmanship. The are also very reputable dealers, auction houses, collectors etc. who routinely sell items which are in MY OPINION forgeries, but which have come to be accepted as genuine. I believe that most of these transaction are innocent, but there are also persons who knowingly sell garbage routinely. Start with common items and don't pay too much for them. Let your instincts guide you as to what you like. Remember, common items will never go up much in value, but they are more likely to be genuine. Look at all of the pieces that you can in person (collections, shows, etc.). Look at how items are made and study how the items were made (i.e. there are excellent sources on how die-struck coins and medals are made). Be 100% happy with everything that you purchase before you put your money down. Stay away from Pilot badges, PLM's, and submarine badges in general. Study on-line listings of items as much as possible. One thing to purchase right away is a copy of the "OEK" (Orden & Ehrenzeichen, 1800-1945, Deutschland-Katalog 2005/2006) by J?rg Nimmergut. This is a good overview of what is out there and it can be used as a guide regarding values. This guide is available on German Ebay. Welcome and best of luck! Most importantly, have fun collecting, as this is what it is all about! Best regards, "SPM"

Hello everyone: The seller is commenting upon the fact that the medals are marked by the die-sinker House-medallist and Sculptor Max von Kawaczynski in Berlin in this instance and is not referring to the recipient of the group. On some medals the name is spelled-out, and on some (i.e. some SEHO Verdienstmedaillen) it is simply "M. v. K". I hope that this clarifies the situation a bit! Best regards, "SPM"

Hello Gentlemen: A very interesting photograph. A very good guess regarding the badge. It IS Bavarian, but it is on the incorrect side for a pilot's badge. The award is a Bavarian "Erinnerungszeichen an die Goldene Hochzeit des K?nigspaares" (Commemorative award for the Golden Anniversary of the Royal Couple) awarded in 1918. A badge not often encountered in photographs. The fellow was obviously a very patriotic Bavarian to wear this award. He probably stopped wearing it a few years later in his career as the political climate changed! Best regards, "SPM"