House Order of Hohenzollern - info needed

[GreyC]

11 hours ago, Deutschritter said:

joining the Fliegertruppe.

as "Beobachter".

GreyC

[Dave Danner]

After the HOH3X is the Bavarian Militär-Verdienstorden 4. Klasse mit Schwertern.

[Deutschritter]

4 hours ago, Dave Danner said:

After the HOH3X is the Bavarian Militär-Verdienstorden 4. Klasse mit Schwertern.

Thank you, Dave. I was hoping for something Bavarian considering the field artillery regiment with a Bavarian Regimentschef. 

Edited May 5 by Deutschritter

[webr55]

Now here is something important which might confirm a theory I have had for a while. It might help explain why we still seem to be missing a number of regular officers as HOH3X recipients.

 

This is the obituary for Generalmajor Franz Launhardt (1866-1925), from Hannoverscher Kurier, 27.7.1925. The obituary is very detailed, and it explicitly states that he was awarded the "Ritterkreuz des Hohenzollernschen Hausordens mit Schwertern". He is not in our lists, though. And I don't think the Kurier, which was a major newspaper in its time, made a mistake here. 

Normally, yes, the HOH3X was only awarded up to Oberstleutnant. An Oberst would already have received a higher Kronenorden (sometimes Roter Adlerorden) with swords. But Launhardt was already promoted to Generalmajor with the date 20.09.1918. Which means, he must have got his HOH3X as Oberst. And that opens up a lot of doors. 

 

Edited May 13 by webr55

[webr55]

According to Daniel, we are still lacking around 40-50 regular (not reserve) officers with HOH3X. But judging by the (significant) progress we have made here during the last 3 years, we should have found much more of those. Instead, if we find any new HOH3X officers at all, they are mostly reserve ones, LtdR and the like. 

My theory was, and still is, that we are missing a number of regular HOH3X officers, because during WW1, the HOH3X got awarded to at least Oberst ranks as well, and these awards may not have been announced or made public in the same way as others (without the obituary, we would never have known of the HOH3X for Launhardt). Maybe the Hohenzollern House Order was regarded as quite prestigious during that time, more prestigious than a Kronenorden. Maybe also at some point you needed to have something you could award to officers of that seniority, who already had a lot of other awards. 

I had this suspicion several times during the last years (there were several cases which made me doubt the official story). But now we have a clear case.

 

And not just one, there is more:

char. GL Richard B. G. Graf Schmettow (1865-1938), who was promoted to Oberst in April 1915 already, and then to GenMaj with the same date as Launhardt, also is listed with the HOH3X (explicitly the "Ritterkreuz"):

https://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Personenregister/S/SchmettowRichardGrafv.htm

 

And again, he is not in our lists either. This cannot be dismissed anymore as another individual case. There is a pattern here. Probably more Oberst-plus rank officers received this award, and those are not listed. That's where the missing 40-50 regular officers hide. And we could only find them by chance, such as finding an obituary like Launhardt's. But this is nothing we can count on. So this kind of search is futile. 

 

Edited May 9 by webr55

[GreyC]

9 hours ago, webr55 said:

Which means, he must have got his HOH3X as Oberst.

Hi,

interesting stuff, but what is your source that he got his HOH3X as Oberst and not as Oberstleutnant? I am probably missing sth. but in the obituary there is no mention when he was promoted to Oberst or when he was awarded the HOH3X.

Best,

GreyC

Edited May 10 by GreyC

[webr55]

If you have been looking at the data and the lists for so long, this is clear: we have no awards in 1914 and extremely few ones in 1915. The HHOX only really started to take off in 1916, when it became clear that this would not be just a short war. 

Even if Schmettow or Launhardt (who must have had a similar promotion date to Oberst) had been awarded the HOH3X in a regular way before April 1915, we would have known by now. The ones we are missing cannot be early war ones, they must be from later in the war. 

My point is also: The HOH3X was seen as the intermediate step to the PLM (which very few got). And this is not new, you find it all over newspaper articles from that time. So HOH3X became gradually more prestigious, during the war. Yes, there were still the Crown Order X grades etc., but higher grade officers (if they didn't get the PLM) probably would have been happy to have at least the HOH3X as this intermediate step. And here we have now two cases, and we had other suspects before. This is a pattern.

[GreyC]

Hi,

thanks to the knowledgable Glenn we now have the date of promotion to Oberst and need no longer speculate in this respect: Oberst on 24 July 1915.

However Glenn wrote me that his HOHX3 seems not to have been listed in the Militär-Wochenblatt but he will dig deeper.

GreyC

[Mattyboy]

Another person I couldn't find in the MWB was Oberst aD Ludwig Haushalter. He was mentioned previously on this thread.

[webr55]

20 hours ago, Mattyboy said:

Another person I couldn't find in the MWB was Oberst aD Ludwig Haushalter. He was mentioned previously on this thread.

 

Exactly! 

 

And yes, the HOH3Xs of neither Schmettow or Launhardt are listed in the MWB. But that is the point of this thread and of all the work that we have been doing for years: find awards that are not listed there. And we have found many of them, especially from the last months of the war. They cannot be from early in the war. 

[webr55]

I mean, just to be clear: There were definitely officers who got the HOH3X at the rank of Oberst, this is known and nothing new. Some examples are v. Berendt, v. Eulitz, Frotscher, Martin v. Oldershausen, v. Wrisberg etc. We have more than 30 in our list. However, almost all of these got the award in 1915 or early 1916. The last ones I find are:

 

Nehbel: July 1916

v. Estorff: Jan 1917

 

and two Kap zS:

Roehr: Jan 1918

Franck: June 1918

 

That is the point: There must be more, who got the HOH3X after mid-1916. Schmettow and Launhardt are two of them, and there will probably be many more.  

[webr55]

The other similar cases that we have had here in this thread were: Kap zS Gygas, GM Karl von Kraewel, and possibly the later GL Carl Briese (not certain). 

But that makes 5-6 cases already. 

Edited May 14 by webr55

[Dave Danner]

On 02/10/2021 at 20:30, Mattyboy said:

A first name: Lt dR Georg Böhm, Schlesische Zeitung 24.06.1918. And a couple of award documents - Hptm Erich Anderson & Major Walter Aust (also some nice photos). 

 

https://www.emedals.com/germany-imperial-a-collection-of-documents-to-major-erich-anderson-109500

 

The emedals link no longer works; I assume he removed the images. Anderson was an Oberstleutnant in the Luftwaffe and his personnel file raises a question or two (besides the question of why the Bundesarchiv misspelled his name). There is a Militär-Dienstzeitbescheinigung which lists his known WW1 decorations - HOH3X, EK1&2, HH, OK1&2, ÖM3K, Vag - but then there is this file photo:

 

 

As can be seen, he appears to be wearing some sort of wreath device on the OK2 ribbon rather than a VOR DEM FEINDE Spange, and he also appears to be wearing a Lübeck Hanseatenkreuz after his Hamburg one. No such award appears in his file, nor is he in the (admittedly incomplete) Lübeck roll.

 

He served in the Prussian Army and Reichswehr from 1.4.1900 to 31.12.1920 and entered the Luftwaffe in 1939, so he would add an 18-year Luftwaffe DA to the awards in the photo. I've not a clue about any WW2 decorations.

 

 

Edited May 15 by Dave Danner

[Deutschritter]

1 hour ago, Dave Danner said:

 

The emedals link no longer works; 

 

https://www.emedals.com/products/germany-imperial-a-collection-of-documents-to-major-erich-anderson-g49775rl1

 

This could very well be the Major z. V. Anderson who received the Gold Medal of the Grand Imperial Order of the Red Arrows on 19 September 1941. Promoted to Oberstleutnant on 1 June 1942 (?). Married since 1913 to Anna Julie Gertrud Peisker (?).

Edited May 14 by Deutschritter

[Mattyboy]

Hi Dave, 

Is there a personnel file for the Luftwaffe GM Hans Schüz? I'd love to see a decent photo of him.

[Dave Danner]

6 hours ago, Mattyboy said:

Hi Dave, 

Is there a personnel file for the Luftwaffe GM Hans Schüz? I'd love to see a decent photo of him.

 

A few:

 

 

 

 

 

[Stogieman]

@Dave Danner, you’re a magician Dave!

[Mattyboy]

Hi Dave, 

Thanks a lot. I was thinking this unknown Oberst might be Schüz, but it doesn't appear to be him. 

 

[Dave Danner]

For some reason, I thought I'd already posted this. Britt from RIR 39 is Carl.

 

[Mattyboy]

Hi all, 

In addition to the Hermann Becker mentioned on page 43 of this thread, I have found the below newspaper article. I'm not sure if this is the same man, or yet another Lt dR Hermann Becker. Wiesbadener Zeitung dated 14 Oct 1920 

 

 

[Dave Danner]

The Oberlehrer in Oldenburg from page 43 was Hermann Wilhelm Gustav Becker (1885-1974).

 

The Lehrer above was Hermann Adolf Becker, *25.7.1897 in Rodenroth, †30.9.1920 ebenda. I have no idea what unit(s) he might have served in. He does not appear in any casualty lists, unless they got his birthplace wrong. There are a few as-yet unidentified Lts.d.R. Becker with the HOH3X, including an aviator, and one with the BZ3bX (from RIR 110, though that was a 1915 award for which he was likely too young), but no as-yet unidentified EH3bX Beckers. So it's either an error in the obituary, a missing EH3bX from later in the war, or a medal of the order received before he was commissioned. They stopped putting death notices in the Zentralblatt für die gesamte Unterrichtsverwaltung in Preußen before 1920, so that doesn't help.

Edited May 23 by Dave Danner

[Deutschritter]

On 17/05/2024 at 05:56, Dave Danner said:

For some reason, I thought I'd already posted this. Britt from RIR 39 is Carl.

 

Hello, Dave!

Is this the same officer? "(8411) Entnazifizierung Carl [Friedrich August] Britt , geb. 26.03.1876 (Versicherungsdirektor)" ... do you know of any further decorations not mentioned in the obituary?

 

Thanks

Andreas

Edited May 23 by Deutschritter

[Dave Danner]

According to the Ehrenbuch der Schweren Artillerie, the Lt.d.R. Schilling in Fußartillerie-Bataillon Nr. 55 was Dr. Hermann Schilling. The only Dr. Hermann Schilling I can find of the appropriate age is Hermann Carl Heinrich Schilling, born 6.3.1886 in Heilbronn, promoted to Dr.phil. on 13.8.1912 by the University of Berlin. He was a Württemberg citizen, and has a military personnel file in Stuttgart, but does not appear to have been a Württemberg army officer (not listed in the Württemberg Militär-Verordnungsblatt). Like many Württemberg Fußartillerie officers, he was possibly commissioned in Hohenzollernsches Fußartillerie-Regiment Nr. 13, although Fußartillerie-Bataillon Nr. 55 was a Tochterformation of Fußartillerie-Regiment General-Feldzeugmeister (Brandenburgisches) Nr. 3.

[Dave Danner]

The Hauptmann Zielke who received the HOH3X in late 1918 is presumably the FußAR 17 officer, but I haven't found a first name. As commander of I./FußAR 17, Hauptmann Zielke was cited in the Korpsbefehl Nr. 31620 of the XIV. Reservekorps dated 13.9.1918 for his artillery support to the 52. Reserve-Division.

 

The other possibility is Saxon Hauptmann Ulrich Zielke, if they made an error about his nationality.

[Mattyboy]

Hello, 

This is probably Karl Gottlieb Zielke (b. 27/06/1887) who married Erna Rentel in 1917. Died in 1942 as a Major aD as per Ancestry. 

Edited Friday at 19:50 by Mattyboy