House Order of Hohenzollern - info needed

[Glenn J]

54 minutes ago, Dave Danner said:

Here is a Militär-Dienstzeitbescheinigung for Bavarian HOH3X recipient Lt.d.L. Karl Bader, later a Luftwaffe Oberstleutnant. No dates,

 

Dave,

 

HOH3X on 26 September 1918 as Führer des Flakzüges 136.

 

Regards

Glenn

[Deutschritter]

I found a some information on Bader at the AHF, sadly no picture:

https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=272669

 

Luftwaffe Officer Career Summaries writes:

BADER, Karl. (DOB: 22.03.88). 13.10.39 Maj.(Erg.O.), from Stab/Lg.Kdo. XIII trf to Stab/Flak-Rgt. 22. 01.07.41 promo to Obstlt.(Flak). 20.01.43 Obstlt.(Erg.O.), trf from Stab/13. Flakdiv. to Stab/Lg.Kdo. Finnland (as Qu Ib) (to 25.05.43). 25.05.43 trf to Führer-Reserve/Ob.d.L. and ordered to Stab/General z.b.V. beim Chef d.Luftwehr for temporary duty. 18.07.45 Obstlt.(Flak).

 

Edited December 17, 2023 by Deutschritter

[Deutschritter]

On 08/12/2023 at 22:10, Dave Danner said:

Maj.d.R.a.D. Karl Schönberg, who was awarded the HOH3X on 11.7.1917, is another example of annoying and inconsistent German spelling. He spelled his own name as Schönberg, and his brothers - Oberstleutnant Otto Schönberg and Maj.d.R.a.D. Franz Schönberg - also used that spelling, but Karl's name is "Schoenberg" in Prussian Army sources (Ranglisten, Militärwochenblatt).

 

Schoenberg, Karl Friedrich Otto

*7.3.1862 in Langgoslin, Obornik

Gutsbesitzer in Wasmerslage, Osterburg

 

17.10.1883 Sekondelieutenant d.R. des IR 46

15.07.1893 Premierlieutenant d.R.

15.06.1899 Hauptmann d.R.

18.08.1913 der Abschied bewilligt

28.08.1914 Kommandeur des III./RIR 227 (bis 26.12.1915)

24.10.1914 verwundet

27.01.1915 Charakter als Major d.R.a.D.

26.12.1915 zum II. Ersatz-Bataillon des FR 36

11.02.1916 Kommandeur des III./IR 153

04.10.1917 verwundet

 

Known decorations: HOH3X, EK1&2, LD1, EH2bX, VAs

 

 

Good evening, Dave! 

Could it be that Rittmeister Otto Schönberg, Oberbeamter der Ansiedlung zu Langgoslin, was his uncle? If yes, then Generalleutnant z. V. Wilhelm Schönberg (HOH3X in WWI), also born in Langgoslin (1872), was his younger cousin. Or maybe Otto was his father? Then Wilhelm was his brother? Thanks! Andreas

Edited December 15, 2023 by Deutschritter

[Dave Danner]

The Major Bauer who received the HOH3X in mid-1917 would appear to be the IR 98 officer. He was promoted to Oberstleutnant on 18.4.1918. His last assignment was command of RIR 236, and his picture in the RIR 236 regimental history appears to show him with the HOH3X buttonhole ribbon. I have no idea what unit he was with in 1917, as he did not come to RIR 236 until some time in 1918. He commanded I./LIR 30 on mobilization and was wounded on 8.12.1914.

 

Bauer, Max Karl Ferdinand Hermann

*27.11.1868 in Fraustadt

†08.06.1945 in ? (bestattet in Baden Baden)

[Dave Danner]

Herbert Claaßen was awarded his HOH3X on 6.7.1918.

 

[webr55]

Hüls is Max:

 

Amtszeitung Lütgendortmund. 18.6.1918

 

[webr55]

Lt dL Lakenberg was a teacher in Gladbeck, but I don't have his first name. 

 

Buersche Zeitung, 14.11.17

 

 

It looks like the Emil Flender in our list might be rather Emil Fleuder, from Hervest-Dorsten. 

 

 

Buersche Zeitung, 15.5.18

 

 

[webr55]

Lt dR Kuhrt is H. Kuhrt, Lehrer in Wiesdorf.

 

Opladener Zeitung, 15.5.1918 

 

 

[webr55]

Röseler is Wilhelm, from Vinsebeck. 

 

Westfälisches Volksblatt, 9.10.1918

 

 

[webr55]

Now this is a very peculiar evidence from 1945: a "W. Vater" from the Paderborn area lost a case with his HHOX medal bar at the station and was looking for it. So if he is the (former Lt dR) Vater in our list, we now know at least his first initial. 

 

Westfälisches Volksblatt, 4.1.1945

 

 

Edited January 23 by webr55

[Dave Danner]

Hptm.d.R. Bahr from Saxon Flieger-Abteilung (Artillerie) 244 is:

 

Bahr, Paul Johann Theodor

*30.6.1880 in Berlin, †25.8.1952

22.3.1899 aus der Hauptkadettenanstalt als Fähnrich dem IR 61 überwiesen

1.10.1900 Leutnant
28.5.1903 wegen Dienstbeschädigung verabschiedet u. zum Landwehr übergeführt
1906-14 Beamter der Eisenbahn-Direktion Halle a.S.
1912 zu den Reserve-Offizieren des FR 36 übergeführt
8.6.1913 Oberleutnant der Reserve
15.8.1914 Kompanie-Führer FR 36
1.9.1914 Kompanie-Führer RIR 232
22.12.1914 zur FEA 3 zur Ausbildung als Beobachter
22.2.1915 zum Et.Flugpark 2
1.3.1915 Hauptmann der Reserve
1.5.1915 FEA 5
3.5.1915 AFP 8
11.5.1915 FFA 15
20.12.1915 AFA 215
10.10.1916 Kommandeur der sächs. AFA bzw. FA A 244
31.12.1918 entlassen
5.1919-7.1919 Kompanie-Führer der Militärpolizei Kowno
1.11.19 zur Sipo Marienwerder
20.6.21 Polizei-Major
20.7.21-5.7.24 Kommandeur der Luftfahrtüberwachestelle Ostpreußen u. Luftpolizeidezernent des Oberpräsidium in Königsberg
7.1924-xx.1925 Verkehrs-Dezernent bei der Polizeigruppe Königsberg
27.10.30 Polizei-Oberstleutnant
31.3.1934 aus der Polizei verabschiedet
15.2.1938 E-Offizier-Anwärter der Luftwaffe
1.11.1938 Major (E) (RDA 1.1.33)
1.4.1939 Sachbearbeiter Ib bei der Flieger-Division 6
1.11.41 Oberstleutnant

31.8.43 entlassen

He had several staff assignments in World War II but Luftwaffe files are a joke when it comes to finding accurate information. From 1.11.1942 he was Sachbearbeiter Ic in the 2.Jäger-Division and his last assignment was with the Arbeitsstab Stalingrad.

 

xx.xx.191x Landwehr-Dienstauszeichnung 2. Klasse
6.12.1914 Eisernes Kreuz 2. Klasse
30.6.1915 Beobachterabzeichen
15.4.1916 Eisernes Kreuz 1. Klasse
17.5.1918 Kgl. Sächsischer Albrechts-Orden, Ritterkreuz 1. Klasse mit Schwertern
11.7.1918 Kgl. Preußischer Hausorden von Hohenzollern, Ritterkreuz mit Schwertern
15.11.1934 Ehrenkreuz für Frontkämpfer
01.09.1939 Wehrmacht (Luftwaffe) Dienstauszeichnung 4. bis 1. Klasse

xx.xx.1939 Medaille zur Erinnerung an den 1. Oktober 1938

1.9.1941 Kriegsverdienstkreuz 2. Klasse mit Schwertern

 

[Dave Danner]

Lakenberg was promoted to Lt.d.L.-Inf. I (Recklinghausen) in RIR 69 on 10.12.1915. He is not in the BBF database, so I don't know what kind of Lehrer he was. The only "H" Kuhrt in the BBF database was still a Vizefeldwebel in late 1918, so not our Kuhrt. The database has files for Lehrers in higher Schuldienst (Gymnasium, etc.) and index cards for Volksschullehrers, but doesn't include other categories like Gewerbelehrers. It also only covers Prussians.

 

Walter Vater, *30.3.1893 in Jastrzembnik, Neutomischel, †19.8.1971 in Essen, who was wounded in 1917 as a Lt.d.R., has a Luftwaffe personnel file in the Bundesarchiv. That would seem to fit with your first initial and his status as an aviator, but I cannot say for certain. Maybe Söderbaum or someone else has seen his file.

"Flender" is correct. Emil Flender was born on 13.8.1885 in Siegen and was a konzessionierter Markscheider in Hervest-Dorsten. A family tree gives his year of death as 1972 but provides no checkable sources. Flender's bio:

 

7.8.1914 Kriegsfreiwilliger im Ers.Pion.Btl. 25
11.9.1914 Unteroffizier
8.6.1915 Vizefeldwebel
17.6.1915 zum Pionier-Regt. Nr. 25
30.6.1915 Offizier-Stellvertreter
18.8.1915 Leutnant der Reserve
24.6.1916 kommandiert zum Stabe des Kdrs. der Pioniere 45
29.6.1916 Führer der Pionier-Kompanie Nr. 318
14.6.1917 Adjutant des Stopis 62
4.8.1918 Führer der Pionier-Kompanie Nr. 103
8.12.1918 entlassen
2.6.1919 endgültig aus dem Heeresdienst entlassen
6.10.1922 Charakter als OLt.d.R.a.D.
17.1.1939 Übung beim WBK Herne
15.5.1940 OLt.d.R.z.V. beim stellv. Gkdo. VI.AK

 

22.10.1915 Eisernes Kreuz 2. Klasse
10.3.1917 Eisernes Kreuz 1. Klasse
24.4.1918 Kgl. Preußischer Hausorden von Hohenzollern, Ritterkreuz mit Schwertern
18.10.1918 Verwundetenabzeichen in mattweiß

Edited January 30 by Dave Danner

[Deutschritter]

I searched the topic for Ludwig Hanstein resp. Georg Hermann Ludwig Hanstein (1892-1918) but with no results. Apparently Prussian, is said to have joined the Fliegertruppe c. end of 1915 (before that?), transferred to Bavarian units in May 1916 (Vizefeldwebel?), was commissioned as Leutnant (der Reserve?) in c. September 1917 and fell on 21 March 1918 during aerial combat (ace with 16 victories or Luftsiege). Aerodrome website states he had the HOH3X. Does anyone know when awarded? Any other career dates would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! 

 

P.S.:

Seeing how often he is mentioned in the Bavarian Verordnungsblätter, I can hardly imagine him serving in the Prussian Army. Maybe his family moved from Sudwalde (Kreis Sulingen, Province of Hanover, Kingdom of Prussia) to Bavaria when he was a child (after the death of his father, Pastor Christian Friedrich Wilhelm Hanstein, in 1900? Internet has 20 sources, but they could all be referencing one wrong source?!

 

Edited January 31 by Deutschritter

[Dave Danner]

He was a student of chemistry in Munich when the war started and was a Kriegsfreiwilliger in the 1. Bayerische Feld-Artillerie-Regiment on 15.8.1914. His parents are listed as living in Munich as well. They were Wilhelm Hanstein and Anna, geb. Happe.

26.9.1914 zur 4. Gebirgs-Batterie des 1.FAR
3.3.1915 zur Sturm-Kanonen-Abteilung
15.4.1915 Gefreiter
23.4.1915 Unteroffizier
10.10.1915 zur 3. Ersatz-Batterie des 1.FAR
1.1.1916 zur Flieger-Ersatz-Abteilung 1 Schließheim
13.5.1916 zum Armeeflugpark der Armee-Abteilung Gaede
19.5.1916 zur bayer. Flieger-Abteilung 8 kommandiert
2.6.1916 zur bayer. Flieger-Abteilung 9 versetzt
37.7.1916 Vizefeldwebel
31.10.1916 zur Jagdstaffel 16 versetzt
14.11.1916 Leutnant der Reserve
25.9.1917 Führer der Jagdstaffel 35
21.3.1918 16:30 gef. im Luftkampt zwischen Vaulx und Noreuil.

 

Auszeichnungen:
14.7.1916 EK2
18.10.1916 EK1
17.12.1916 Ehrenbecher "Dem Sieger im Luftkampfe"
19.12.1916 Flugzeugführer-Abzeichen
24.1.1917 Ghzgl. Bad. Silberne Verdienstmedaille am Bande der Militär-Karl-Friedrich-Verdienstmedaille
17.10.1917 Kgl. Bayer. Militär-Verdienstorden, 4. Klasse mit Schwertern
14.2.1918 Kgl. Bayer. Militär-Verdienstorden, 4. Klasse mit der Krone und Schwertern
20.1.1918 Kgl. Preuß. Hausorden von Hohenzollern, Ritterkreuz mit Schwertern

 

Luftsiege:
10.12.1916 Sopwith
1.4.1917 Nieuport
1.5.1917 Nieuport
18.6.1917 Fesselballon
20.8.1917 SPAD
26.8.1917 Fesselballon
12.7.1917 Paul Schmitt [French bomber]
14.7.1917 Paul Schmitt [French bomber]
4.9.1917 SPAD
5.9.1917 Fesselballon
25.9.1917 Parasol-Eindecker *
20.10.1917 Sopwith
12.11.1917 Sopwith
3.1.1918 S.E.5
12.1.1918 Armstrong [-Whitworth]
21.3.1918 Sopwith

 

* It doesn't say what type of parasol monoplane, but since he wouldn't have been credited for shooting down a German aircraft like a Fokker D.VIII, it was likely a Morane-Saulnier.

 

 

 

 

[Deutschritter]

Unbelievable, Dave, thanks so much! His father, Christian Friedrich Wilhelm Hanstein (b. 23 September 1861), died in the Henriettenstift in Hanover on 4 March 1900 in Hanover from heart failure after an abdominal operation.Maybe his mother, Anna Wilhelmine Lina Theodora, née Happe, married again. This explains so much. About the awards, maybe you could help me out: I have the Kgl. Bayer. Militär-Verdienstorden, 4. Klasse mit Schwertern on 12 September 1917 (Verordnungs-Blatt des Königlich Bayerischen Kriegsministeriums, July to December 1917, p. 2365), could this be right, or am I confusing something? Thank you! 

20 minutes ago, Dave Danner said:

19.12.1916 Flugzeugführer-Abzeichen

 

Is it possible, he had the Beobachterabzeichen before that? Thanks! 

[Dave Danner]

Sometimes the Kriegsranglisten mix up official award dates with bestowal dates.

 

He is only listed with the Flugzeugführerabzeichen in the various Kriegsranglisten and Kriegsstammrollen. No Beobachter.

Edited January 31 by Dave Danner

[Dave Danner]

Ernst Jüngling's Generalskartei photo shows at least one unknown decoration, but the picture is fuzzy. He does not appear to have a regular personnel file in the archives, since he was released from the army in 1944.

 

He received the Spange to the EK2 on 4.10.1939), the Spange to the EK1 on 22.6.1940 and the KVK1X on 1.9.1943. The ribbon bar appears to be EK2Sp-HOH3X-KVK2X-???-ÖM3K-FEK-WHDA1&3, and then probably the Austrian and Hungarian (or maybe Bulgarian) Kriegserinnerungsmedaillen.

 

 

[Deutschritter]

21 hours ago, Dave Danner said:

Ernst Jüngling's Generalskartei photo shows at least one unknown decoration, but the picture is fuzzy.

 

I just read this: "Rechtsritter des Kgl. Preuß. Haus-Ordens von Hohenzollern, Inhaber des Herzgl. Braunschweig. Verdienstkreuzes, des k. k. Österreich. Militär-Verdienstkr. 3. Kl. mit der Kriegs-Dekorationm, Rechtsritter des Kgl. Bulgarischen Tapferkeits-Ordens 4. Kl." ... could one of these be the ribbon in question? Brunswick, 2nd or 1st Class? Bulgarian Order of Bravery, WWI or WWII?

Edited February 7 by Deutschritter

[Kriegsmarine Admiral]

Does anyone know which is the correct award date for Kapitänleutnant Wilhelm Rhein's Ritterkreuz des Königlich Preußischen Hausordens von Hohenzollern mit Schwertern: 02.11.1918 or 20.11.1918?

Thanks!

[Mattyboy]

This might be a new one: Alphons Frhr von Hoverbeck gen. von Schoenaich

 

[webr55]

Looks very good! 

[Dave Danner]

According to the Ehrenmal, Lt.d.R. Sievers from RIR 116 was killed in a plane crash on 9.6.1918 while serving with the Fliegertruppe. I can't find a matching name in the Verlustlisten, so no idea what his first name was.

[Soderbaum]

Hi

 

I have Lt dR Friedrich Sievers listed two times in the DVLs. First time as Vfw in PVL22.01.1917, second time in PVL25.06.1918 when listed as KIacc. His unit then is listed as FEA 7 in one source, so no front-line unit

 

I cannot find his promotion to Lt dR in MWB.

 

He was born 15.09.1892 zu Eldagsen, Springe.

 

I have not checked the BAMA file for Walter Vater, but apparently he had a long service in FAA 284.

Gunnar

[Dave Danner]

On 22/09/2021 at 09:30, Dave Danner said:

Ernst Josef Dewies was born on 28.3.1893 in Bonn. He came out of the Hauptkadettenanstalt and was named a Fähnrich in FußAR 10 on 13.1.1915. He was promoted to Leutnant on 8.5.1915, later receiving a Patent of 11.9.1913. He was living as an Oberleutnant a.D. and Kaufmann after the war but was not a member of the FußAR 10 Offizier-Vereinigung, at least as of their 1926 Mitglieder-Verzeichnis.

 

Supplemental information on Dewies:

 

26.10.1938 in die Luftwaffe eingetreten

01.04.1939 Hauptmann (E) (RDA 1.12.33)

01.04.1940 Major

01.11.1942 Oberstleutnant

 

27.04.1915 1914 Eisernes Kreuz 2. Klasse
10.11.1916 1914 Eisernes Kreuz 1. Klasse
19.06.1917 Kgl Sächs. Albrechts-Orden, Ritterkreuz 2. Klasse mit Schwertern
05.11.1917 Hamburgisches Hanseatenkreuz

xx.xx.191x K.u.k. Österreich-Ungarisches Militärverdienstkreuz 3. Klasse mit der Kriegsdekoration 3. Klasse
xx.xx.1918 Verwundetenabzeichen in schwarz
22.08.1918 Kgl. Preuß. Hausorden von Hohenzollern, Ritterkreuz mit Schwertern

 

No other decorations are listed in his Lebenslauf nor his Kriegsrangliste-Auszüge other than the Ehrenkreuz für Frontkämpfer and two 1920s unofficial commemoratives - the Deutsche Ehrendenkmünze and the Ritterkreuz der Deutschen Ehrenlegion. However, the photo below appears to show another ribbon, though the folding of the ribbons and the color-shifting of the black-and-white photos make it hard to tell what it is. He would have also had a Luftwaffe 4-year Dienstauszeichnung, but there's nothing further in the file on any WW2 decorations.

 

 

 

 

[Deutschritter]

17 hours ago, Dave Danner said:

 

but there's nothing further in the file on any WW2 decorations.

 He served with the Stab/Luftzeuggruppe Moskau and with the Feldluftzeuggruppe Finnland, so at least a KVK, maybe even something Finish? You don't happen to have a death date? Thanks! 

 

To all: I found a "Josef Ernst Dewies" at ancestry.de. As a non-paying member, they will not let me see the data. If anyone is a paying member, please make a screenshot of the available information. At least we could find out, who he married in Berlin and when.

Edited March 21 by Deutschritter