German group w/Finnish Cross of Liberty 2nd class

[Jani Tiainen]

Hello,

One of the new groups. Actually I got this from IWB Stuttgart but have not able to pictured this yet.

Any chance to be able to research this? I should be able to get list of Germans who got the 2nd class Cross of Liberty.

Regards,

Jani

[Guest Rick Research]

What color is the backing material?

I don't turn up anyone either army or navy at the moment. The Strelitz Cross is an oddity for a combination, as is the Lippe--with the Oldenburg and Hamburg crosses--so I'm thinking this was an army bar rather than navy.

The list of 2nd Class X 1918s to Germans would be VERY useful in identifying groups.

[sambolini]

Wow,

That is a beautiful bar, congratulations. Hopefully Rick can come up with something for you. To a novice like myself it would seem a bar like this would be instantly ID'able, but as the saying goes and I'm learning, "the devil is in the details".

Sam K.

[Jani Tiainen]

backing material is red

Jani

[Guest Rick Research]

Red is the "traditional" generic backing. That does not necessarily mean it was an army bar-- I have seen red backings on naval bars--but naval bars are generally on dark blue.

It might well be easiest to identify such German groups by the much fewer (though we never want to publicize HOW few ) Finnish OCL2Xs and look for KNOWN officers we can exclude than trying to find someone from the German combiunation:

almost 9,000 Hohenzollerns (and the published list of recipients is FAR from complete-- Daniel is slaving away on updating the list from sources other than the Milit?r Wochenbl?tter)

and NO published rolls for ANY of the other German awards.

So trying to tie a German officer with the OCL2X to possible Hohenzollerns will be much easier than the other way around, since there will be incredibly fewer officers who will remain as potential recipients.

The combination suggests a wartime Major or perhaps an Oberstleutnant promoted during the war, though he could have been a Captain promoted to Major during the war. A Red Eagle 4 in the army was like a badge of rank for Majors-- in the 1914 Rank List all but 2 or 3 Prussian Majors had that Order. Naval officers got it in far greater numbers as pre-war Kapit?nleutnants

but the Lippe Cross and the Strelitz cross (much less common than its Schwerin "twin") are not particularly naval awards.

So this bar went either to a German regimental/battalion commander in Finland 1918, or to a very senior staff officer there. He ended his career with the war and did not serve in the Reichsheer or Reichsmarine, which means he "disappears" without any published trace of his awards after May 1914.

[Claudius]

Wow,

That is a beautiful bar, congratulations. Hopefully Rick can come up with something for you. To a novice like myself it would seem a bar like this would be instantly ID'able, but as the saying goes and I'm learning, "the devil is in the details".

Sam K.

Those are both nice bars!

That would be cool if they could be identified.

[christerd]

Hi, not to say anything about how many 2nd class 1918 Crosses awarded I have

listed 18 Swedish officers who recived this cross.

Christer

[saschaw]

Hey Jani, it is the bar of Korvettenkapit?n (at last Konteradmiral) Johannes Jantzen. At least A. Thies sold it as this in 2004.

[webr55]

It looks similar to Jantzen's, but it's not his. Jantzen is this one:

[webr55]

and this one:

[saschaw]

Well okay, thanks. So Thies wasn't right ...

[webr55]

Well okay, thanks. So Thies wasn't right ...

Thies did not even get his rank right. Kap zS Jantzen never made Konteradmiral.

Edited October 5, 2007 by webr55

[saschaw]

Sans mots. I'm sorry, thought to be cleverer than all of you together, looking in an elderly catalogue ...

[Guest Rick Research]

Jani-- I've FINALLY found him after doing the Strelitz rolls. As I thought, a wartime Major, charakterisiert Oberstleutnant aD. But so much time has gone by now, do you even care any more, wherever it now is?

I don't post "into the air" research when something is in unknown hands Out There Somewhere Unknown.

It was Los 33 in Thies's December 2006 auction from George Seymour's collection.

[misiu]

It is a long time ago since sth was posted in this threat.

Looking at Jantzen‘s bar I have the question whether it is possible to identify more Baltic Division officers medal bars by the combination of the China medal 1901, the Hamburg medal and the Finnish liberty cross 2nd class?

Does a roll exist for the China medal 1901? More than 40.000 have been awarded.

Dete

[Dave Danner]

For the Ostsee-Division, I have the names of about 60 of an estimated 64 recipients of the 2nd class.  Most were company and squadron commanders in 1918 and not old enough to have served in China. 

This does not include naval officers or others who might have been in Finland outside of the Ostsee-Division and the staff of the Deutscher General in Finnland.

About half of the 40,000 or so recipients of the China Medal for combatants were naval personnel.  I have no idea how they break down by officers whose medal bars might be traceable and petty officers and sailors whose bars would likely not be traceable. 

German land forces in the China Expedition amounted to about 19,000 soldiers, of whom about 1,000 were officers and officials in officer rank. There is a rank list of these officers online, but the website is currently down.

[Paul R]

Most impressive medal bars.  Are most of these to Generals? 

[Dave Danner]

Far below generals. The 2nd Class was awarded mainly to majors and captains in the army and to naval officers in the rank of Kapitänleutant and Korvettenkapitän. Also officials of equivalent rank, such as medical officers. 

I'm not sure, but I think Germans got a "bump up" in the class they received, which often happens with foreign officers receiving a country's awards. Maybe one of our Finnish members can confirm, but I think a Finn would normally need to be around the rank of colonel or lt. colonel to receive the 2nd Class.

[Paul R]

Dave,

Thank you for the explanation. 

Paul