Von Hutier.

[Chris Boonzaier]

Hi,

Does anyone have a good pic of von Hutier?

Thanks

Chris

[Chris Boonzaier]

Hi,

Can noone help on this?

Thakns

Chris

[jonv]

realize this may be OBE but I have a couple images...

[jonv]

Hi,

Can noone help on this?

Thakns

Chris

[Chris Boonzaier]

Hi,

thanks, I will use the 2nd one of old baldy.

Best

Chris

[ccj]

Hi,

thanks, I will use the 2nd one of old baldy.

Best

Chris

What the heck is wrong with being bald!

[Chris Boonzaier]

Nothing wrong with it... I hear certain chicks dig it....

When I reach some of you guys age... maybe I will have a bit less on my head than in my ears and nose as well :-)

[ccj]

When I reach some of you guys age...

Wow, I didn't know I was advanced in age.

[Chris Boonzaier]

Yup, there are some old guys out there... just ask Rick and Gordon Williamson (he is already retired)

[dond]

Hey, I've retired once but have 21 more years before I can retire again.

[ccj]

Hey, I've retired once but have 21 more years before I can retire again.

The way things are going I'll have to work another 30 years. 40 if I can't stop buying this military crap! If i live that long...

[GeneralderInfanterie]

Can anyone help to find out more on this man's career ? Until now, the only answers I've got are the dates of his comissioning as a Second Lieutenant (15.04.1875) and of his promotion to General of Infantry (27.01.1917). On the Prussian Machine forum there are a few informations. But very little is known about his career before the outbreak of the war. It seems so stranger to me not to mention things about his career, since in every topic concerning the general very much is told about "Hutier tactics" (well, he was not the inventor, but the first who applied infiltration tactic on a large scale). There is nothing mentioned except for he served in the Guards and that in 1885 he went to the Kriegsakademie. What about his promotions to First Lieutenant, Captain, Major, Lieutenant Colonel, Colonel and Major General ? I found somewhere that he was appointed Lieutenant General in 1912 but nothing more precisely, like day and month. And the assignments, informations are still scarce, too.

[Deruelle]

Hello,

Welcome on board.

General von Hutier was appointed Generalleutnant on 22 April 1912 R on Patent. he was at the head of the 1. Garde Division. He was appointed General d. inf. on 27 January 1917. Those informations come from Dienstalters-Liste der Offiziere der KP Armee 1913 and 1918.

for the moment that's all I have.

Christophe

[Guest Rick Research]

Surely there is a complete career biography in print somewhere on him.

You need to understand this about the annual Prussian Army Rank Lists:

before 1902 there were NO rank dates published for anyone under the rank of Major, and until that year they were listed en masse by seniority of rank in the back, without index. So if someone was-- as von Hutier was-- a General Staff Major, if you did not know what PREVIOUS branch of the army (infantry, foot artillery, pioneers etc) he came from, EVERY section for ALL Majors (and so on) has to be checked. General Staff officers did not have their own seniority sections.

Much easier after 1901, but before that...

Major i.G. (ex Infantry) 30.05.96 V-- in 1900 1st General Staff Officer I. Armeekorps

Oberstleutnant i.G. 12.09.02 G Chief of General Staff, III. Armeekorps 1903

Oberst 15.09.05 L commanding Hessian Leibgarde Infanterie Regiment 115 1909

Generalmajor 22.03.10 D commanding 74th Infantry Brigade in the 3rd Infantry Division 1911

His commission dates as Premierlieutenant and Hauptmann i.G. elude me for the moment. I've looked through the Vollständige Rangliste of 1897 but didn't happen to find him-- no index, of course.

Oskar von Hutier

Born 27.08.1857

Died 04.12.1934

Assignments from Dermot Bradley, Ernest Henriot, Hans H. Hildebrand et al, “Formationsgeschichte und Stellenbesetzung der deutschen Streitkräfte 1815-1990,” 3 volumes—Biblio Verlag, Osnabrück 1990-1993

Chief of the General Staff of 1st Army Corps 18.10.02 to 21.03.07

Commander Inf Rgt 115 22.03.07 to 21.03.10

Commander 74th Infantry Brigade 22.03.10 to 20.02.11 then

Oberquartiermeister of the Prussian Army 1911

Commander 1st Guard Infantry Division 19.11.12 to 03.04.15

Commander IIIrd Army Corps 04.04.15 until replaced on 02.01.17

Commander 8th Army 22.04. until replaced 12.12.17

Commander 18th Army 22.12.17 to 14.01.19

[bob lembke]

very much is told about "Hutier tactics" (well, he was not the inventor, but the first who applied infiltration tactic on a large scale).

Hi, "General";

Yes, but the infiltration tactics were developed two years before Riga on the West Front, and a year or more before Riga East Front generals were borrowing storm-troops trained in these tactics to come east and lead important attacks using these tactics. However, your qualification about "large scale" is useful; the density of defenses in the west were so high that such tactics could probably not be used on a very large scale there. But everyone repeats the stuff about him developing these tactics and that is nonsense. Even for the Battle of Riga he borrowed storm troops from the West Front for his successful attack. Garde=Reserve=Pionier=Regiment (Flammenwerfer) and Sturm=Bataillon Nr. 5 (Rohr) developed these tactics in 1915.

I note that you mentioned this in a way that indicates that you are merely reporting that everyone mentioning von Hutier mentions that stuff, not that you necessarily believe it. Not trying to be argumentative here, just hopefully informative.

And welcome to the Forum!

Gruss aus Philadelphia,

Bob Lembke

[GeneralderInfanterie]

Thank you, thank you very much for your help. Your answers really enlightened an provided me a new perspective on how the thread went in the German Imperial Army. My old curiosity concerning this general is new satisfied. I would also point that, to my mind, even general Hutier doesn't takes credit for the infiltrations tactics, he still remains one of the best and most innovative german generals of World War I. He didn't invented them, but was creative enough and carreful to understand their advantages and to adapt them for the needs of the Eastern Theater. Sometimes, learning from someone else and creatively developing one's idea means, in some way, reinventing it. I repeat, it's just my opinion. Thank you once more !

[bob lembke]

Von Hutier was certainly a very skilled general. At Riga he employed 84 Flammenwerfer teams from Garde=Reserve=Pionier=Regiment (Flammenwerfer) , brought from the West Front for the assault. This unit (actually its predecesor, Abteilung Reddemann) started developing its very special tactics, with much emphasis on infiltration, starting about February 1915, and Sturm=Bataillon Nr. 5 (Rohr) (again, actually its predecessor) started working on similar tactics a few months later. At Riga von Hutier captured 8900 men, 200 MGs, and 325 cannon, and a lot of very vital terrain, hundreds of square kilometers. But the units I mentioned started developing these tactics 2 1/2 years earlier.

Bob

[GeneralderInfanterie]

Well, it seems, also, that he owed much to the skills of his artillery commander, the talented Oberstleutnant Georg Bruchmüller. I figure the more we get closer to our times, the more it's obvious that victories in battles are less the result of a single commander, but rather a collective endeavour. A general, whatever his gifts, cannot cover all the aspects. Battlefields can't be supervised by commanding generals with their own eyes, those days are gone for ever a long time ago. They have to rely on their subordinates with different fields of expertise. At him goes just the summum, he is the very end of decision chain. Not so funny anymore. This makes me remember the words of general Patton (played by George C. Scott) at the end of the movie which bears it's name (approximately): in the future the generals will be no more warriors, but managers. Sorry for my English and off topic considerations .

[Claudio]

double posting... please delete. Sorry!

Edited March 24, 2010 by Claudio

[Claudio]

Here I have more info to share...

Militärische Laufbahn

15.04.1875 Sekondeleutnant

06.12.1883 Premierleutnant

20.09.1890 Hauptmann

30.05.1896 Major

12.09.1902 Oberstleutnant

15.09.1905 Oberst

22.03.1910 Generalmajor

22.04.1912 Generalleutnant

27.01.1917 General der Infanterie

Dienststellungen

15.04.1875 Sekondeleutnant im Infanterie-Regiment 88

01.10.1881 Bataillons-Adjudant im Infanterie-Regiment 88

01.10.1885 -

21.07.1888 Kommandiert zur Kriegsakademie

22.03.1889 Ab 01.04.1889 kommandiert zum Grossen Generalstab

18.11.1890 Kompaniechef im Infanterie-Regiment 88

15.11.1890 Kompaniechef im Infanterie-Regiment 115

17.02.1894 Ia im Generalstab der 30. Division

12.09.1896 Ab 01.10.1896 in den Grossen Generalstab versetzt

10.09.1898 Ia im Generalstab des I. Armee-Korps

14.09.1900 Ab 01.10.1900 Kommandeur des I. Battallions des Infanterie-Regiments 95

18.08.1902 Abteilungschef im Grossen Generalstab

18.10.1902 Mit der Vertretung des Chefs des Generalstabs des III. Armee-Korps beauftragt

22.11.1902 Chef des Generalstabs des III. Armee-Korps mdWdGb

01.09.1903 Chef des Generalstabs des III. Armee-Korps

22.03.1907 Kommandeur des Infanterie-Regiments 115

22.03.1910 Kommandeur der 74. Infanterie-Brigade

03.02.1911 Oberquartiermeister im Grossen Generalstab

21.02.1911 -

23.12.1912 Zugl. Auch Mitglied der Studienkommission der Kriegsakademie

19.11.1912 Kommandeur der 1. Garde-Infanterie-Division

04.04.1915 Kommandierender General des XXI. Armee-Korps

02.01.1917 Oberbefehlshaber der Armee-Abteilung D (Dünaburg)

22.04.1917 Oberbefehlshaber der 8. Armee

22.12.1917 Oberbefehlshaber der 18. Armee

14.01.1919 verabschiedet

01.12.1919 -

05.12.1934 Vorsitzender des Deutschen Offiziersbundes (D.O.B.)

Orden & Ehrenzeichen

13.09.1906 Preussen, Kronen-Orden 2. Klasse

1909 -1910 Hessen-Darmstadt, Ludewigs-Orden Ritterkreuz 1. Klasse

21.01.1912 Preussen, Roter-Adler-Orden 2. Klasse mit Eichenlaub

02.06.1913 Preussen, Stern zum RAO 2. Klasse mit Eichenlaub und Krone

13.09.1914 Preussen, Eisernes Kreuz 2. Klasse

20.09.1914 Preussen, Eisernes Kreuz 1. Klasse

12.10.1915 Preussen, Schwerter zum RAO 2. Klasse mit Eichelaub und Krone

06.09.1917 Preussen, Pour le Mérite

16.11.1917 Sachsen-Königreich, St. Heinrich-Orden, RK und Komturkreuz 2. Klasse

23.03.1918 Preussen, Eichenlaub zum Pour le Mérite

07.05.1918 Sachsen-Königreich, St. Heinrich-Orden, Komturkreuz 1. Klasse

22.06.1918 Preussen, Roter-Adler-Orden 1. Klasse mit Eichenlaub und Schwertern

15.10.1918 Preussen, Hausorden von Hohenzollern, Komturkreuz mit Schwertern und Stern

I would be interested to know the exact award date of his hessian Ludewig-Order, knight cross 1st class...

ciao,

Claudio

Edited March 24, 2010 by Claudio

[arb]

Claudio,

"I would be interested to know the exact award date of his hessian Ludewig-Order, knight cross 1st class..."

11 June 1909. Taken from the "Großherzoglich Hessische Ordensliste 1914", page 12.

Andy

[VtwinVince]

Don't forget that von Hutier's Ordensspange was just sold by Detlev Niemann.

[ccj]

Does anyone have a photo of Hutier's ordensspange?

[Claudio]

here it is...

[ccj]

That's an interesting bar.