Turkey Gallipoli star with miniature and box

[speedytop]

Hi Demir ERMAN,

"1. Everybody is wondering about BB&Co, including myself, but since there is a big amount of BB&Co TWM, I think it must be a local company in Istanbul. It must have been operating during the Gallipoli war and closed afterwards because of the economic difficulties of the Independence War.

2. For Gallipoli there is only one official medal; TWM (Gallipoli Star) and it is the painted one. I don't think as some of my colleques are claiming that these painted ones have been given to the enlisted men and the emaille ones to the officers. No, everybody received the same and only official issue. The medal is shown below."

Sorry, but I have my problems with this statement.

I had the chance, to archive a great amount of absolute original decorations and documents of several German generals from a family.

It is not only this:

http://www.turkishmedals.net/decorations.htm

No, my opinion is based on the pieces in the family treasure.

Unfortunately there is no document, but I think it is the original decoration (marked BB&Co) with the original "case", a cardboard:

Regards

Uwe

[Chris Boonzaier]

Hi Uwe,

but was it awarded in the Gallipoli time or after?

Best

Chris

[TerryG]

Could one of our Turkish members translate this please? (book by Metin Erureten)

[Ulsterman]

Hi Uwe,

but was it awarded in the Gallipoli time or after?

Best

Chris

The BB&Co. version or the Turkish star itself?

The BB&Co. version we know was available in the later war period because of multiple pieces in complete collections of stuff ("This is what Grandpa had") and also because there are pieces with provenance to other persons (diplomats, medicos, bureaucrats) that are BB&Co. pieces out there. These provenance items go back a long way and are in catalogs in the 1960s. Also, the BB&Co. version is in the catalog of Bannerman @ 1922 (Rick R. can illustrate) and he had it via a vet for sure.

The Turkish version of the medal was awarded to Turks in the Gallipoli campaign. The NCO who put a bullet through the French submarine got one and there's a photo of him wearing it.

Edited October 27, 2008 by Ulsterman

[demir]

Could one of our Turkish members translate this please? (book by Metin Erureten)

Hello,

Here is the translation:

"TWM (Turkish War Medal) was planned originally to be made of bronze, and shape was oval but hasn?t been produced. Instead a star shaped, red enameled medal made of bafon (50% Cu, 25 % Ni, 25 % Zn) was produced.

The TWM, made of several pieces, is actually an Order but, in the TWM Regulation the word ?medal? was used. For this reason it find its place among the medals listing.

Several sizes have been seen; 57 mm, 68 mm, 75 mm and 80 mm. Some of the medals which are made of bafon have been produced by the Ottoman Mint (the painted ones) and the others (emaille ones) have been produced abroad (Berlin). There are silver ones also.

The medal has been awarded to the soldiers and officers of the Ottoman Empire and her allies which fought in Gallipoli, Galicia, Caucasus, Irak, Egypt and other fronts. It also was given to those who served behind the fronts.

Osmanlı Madalyaları ve Nişanları (Ottoman Medals and Orders) by Metin Er?reten 2001 Istanbul "

Demir ERMAN

[demir]

Hi Demir ERMAN,

"1. Everybody is wondering about BB&Co, including myself, but since there is a big amount of BB&Co TWM, I think it must be a local company in Istanbul. It must have been operating during the Gallipoli war and closed afterwards because of the economic difficulties of the Independence War.

2. For Gallipoli there is only one official medal; TWM (Gallipoli Star) and it is the painted one. I don't think as some of my colleques are claiming that these painted ones have been given to the enlisted men and the emaille ones to the officers. No, everybody received the same and only official issue. The medal is shown below."

Sorry, but I have my problems with this statement.

I had the chance, to archive a great amount of absolute original decorations and documents of several German generals from a family.

It is not only this:

http://www.turkishmedals.net/decorations.htm

No, my opinion is based on the pieces in the family treasure.

Unfortunately there is no document, but I think it is the original decoration (marked BB&Co) with the original "case", a cardboard:

Regards

Uwe

Hello again,

As far as I know, the red cardboard case/envelope is for the red painted TWMedals.

Here is a picture I copied some time ago (can't remember the site ) which also shows the same case with the painted TWM, the picture of the owner and the ribbon.

Best wishes

Demir ERMAN

[avsaribar]

Dear Sirs ,

The only Ottoman (Turkish Made) ones are the painted ones as Mr.Demir mentioned.

All the other ones are made by foreign countries. The pink-red envelope was belong to the

Painted Turkish-Ottoman Made ones. Not BB.Co.

As I tried to mentioned before in some posts ;

Many Years we are also can not prove that BB.CO is in Germany.

But I bealive it BB.CO is a German Company also located

in Germany , if you ask me why , What I can say is ,

As we know War medal created in 1915 and Mustafa Kemal

Ataturk makes the Alphabet reform at The 1 November 1928

Till 1928 , all the medals , orders and badges which MADE in

Turkey has the Ottoman script on them. (I mean if they have any...)

(For example , there are many examples of the Medjidie Orders

which doesnt have any kind of Mint Mark but even has a small

stet mark on their reverse.)

Anyway what I observed and bealive is , only the Ottoman Orders and

medals which made in foreign countries such as Halley and

La Foyalle in Paris , has the Latin Scripts on them.

BB.CO is also made in Germany , many people says in Berlin...

It could be Private Company which was just doing for our Goverment

War Medals .

Sincere Regards,

Avsar Ibar

Ibar Jewellery and Antiques

http://www.avsaribar.com

info@avsaribar.com

[Ulsterman]

Yup-

I still think that's a Binder Bros. catch.

If I can only find their kitty-cat hat pin I might be able to prove it.

[speedytop]

Hi,

I can only say, that there is no other TWM or other case for a TWM in the set of orders and decorations of this "General der Infanterie".

He had some more high ranked Turkish orders and decorations.

Regards

Uwe

[Ed_Haynes]

There is so much "rubbish information" out there regarding this award, spread mostly by those who insist on seeing it as somehow a "German" award, made up by post-War German trinket-makers, rather that as a legitimate Ottoman award. Can this "studied ignorance" even be undone?? With the help of good friends in Turkey, maybe . . . maybe . . . ??

[Ulsterman]

There is so much "rubbish information" out there regarding this award, spread mostly by those who insist on seeing it as somehow a "German" award, made up by post-War German trinket-makers, rather that as a legitimate Ottoman award. Can this "studied ignorance" even be undone?? With the help of good friends in Turkey, maybe . . . maybe . . . ??

Ed:

What are you talking about?

:unsure:

[Ed_Haynes]

Ed:

What are you talking about?

Not sure why this is so complex: The ongoing community fiction that the post-War awards mean anything other than attractive doo-dads made up as fantasy items by enterprising Weimar capitalists to be worn by German recipients of a never-bestowed or long-discarded legitimate Ottoman award. The inability to understand this as an OTTOMAN (not "German" ) award persists. Our friends in Turkey help and attenpt to educate the community, but they lose out to received "wisdom"?

[Ulsterman]

So, if I interpret you correctly, you think that the BB&Co. versions of the star are Ottoman made?

Or are you clarifying that the star was and is an Ottoman/Turkish award and not a Wiemar vanity piece?

[Alex K]

Not sure why this is so complex: The ongoing community fiction that the post-War awards mean anything other than attractive doo-dads made up as fantasy items by enterprising Weimar capitalists to be worn by German recipients of a never-bestowed or long-discarded legitimate Ottoman award. The inability to understand this as an OTTOMAN (not "German" ) award persists. Our friends in Turkey help and attenpt to educate the community, but they lose out to received "wisdom"?

I tend to agree, My own version of the star made by Godet may or may not be wartime, it is (Or was) a very nicely made piece of jewellery for wear by those German/Austrian recipients who felt the original Turkish "Pot-metal/Painted" piece did not go with their other bling, as such it should be realised that the only "Genuine" version of these IMHO are the Turkish issue ones, pretty or not.

regards

Edited October 28, 2008 by Alex K

[Ulsterman]

I am still confused here.

German and Austrian made pieces were given and worn by Ottoman officers.

Note the smaller tughra size on the Turkish issue piece as compared to the BB& Co. piece.

[Alex K]

I am still confused here.

German and Austrian made pieces were given and worn by Ottoman officers.

Note the smaller tughra size on the Turkish issue piece as compared to the BB& Co. piece.

But that's the point of the discussion, Official pieces issued by the Ottoman government were the unattractive painted pieces. Officers and those who preferred something better wore the more appealing german/Austrian versions, I am not aware of any of the enamelled versions being issued by Turkey, My Godet was described in the dealer's catalogue as an "Officer's" version, I have since learnt otherwise

regards

Alex

[Ulsterman]

Yup:

Not mint made and we do not know if they were officially awarded, but German and Austrian pieces were both worn and presented by Ottoman officers. We know this from specific groups.

I may also have war time proof of wear by Germans of the BB& Co. pieces in 1918, which corroborates what Kleitman wrote @ 55 years ago. Kleitman referred to these (BB & Co. etc. :"higher quality") as private purchase pieces.

Godet however, made their pieces in the 1920-40s.

Edited October 28, 2008 by Ulsterman

[demir]

There is so much "rubbish information" out there regarding this award, spread mostly by those who insist on seeing it as somehow a "German" award, made up by post-War German trinket-makers, rather that as a legitimate Ottoman award. Can this "studied ignorance" even be undone?? With the help of good friends in Turkey, maybe . . . maybe . . . ??

Hi,

You are right.

For me the ones with red paint on them are the official/legitimate Ottoman/Turkish War Medals,with a Ottoman Governments Regulation (attached picture from Mr. Er?reten's book) how to receive it, whom to give it, how to wear, where to wear it, etc. dated February 1333 (1914). There is no article in it that indicates where the medals can be produced. Which means that they will be produced at the Ottoman Mint in İstanbul.

We know that the painted ones were made in The Ottoman Mint in Istanbul by the order of the Ottoman Government which made them official, but we don't have any knowledge about the other companies, did they also produce the medals by the order of the Ottoman Government?

But, if you like to collect BB&Co, German and Austrian made ones also, like me, it is OK, but still they are not official/legitimate Ottoman/Turkish Medals.

Best wishes

Demir ERMAN

[Guest Rick Research]

What we outside of Turkey see, of course, are War Medal stars from German groups. 90 percent of these, at least, are the BB&Co type. Whoever they were, they made a LOT of those... and apparently nothing else!

Now that all these veterans are dead, it is too late to go back and ask them where and when they GOT their stars.

It has become almost a quest for the Holy Grail to find CLEAR, SHARP portraits which can be DATED of these stars being worn.

For instance-- on this April 1917 dated portrait closeup of an autographed photo of Feldmarschallleutnant Franz Ritter H?fer von Feldsturm, deputy chief of the Austro-Hungarian General Staff... there is a scratch right across it and... it is JUST enough out of focus not to be able to TELL!

This illustration of what is clearly a BB&Co example comes from the 1927 sales catalog of New York "military surplus czar" (he sold everything from buttons to motor torpedo boats) Francis Bannermann

[Eric Stahlhut]

for what it may be worth: here is a very similar hallmark on an austrian item:

[Eric Stahlhut]

[Ulsterman]

exactly!! von Feldsturms' is an enamel BB & co. Look at the oval SIZE on the right of the tughra. The painted ones are smaller.

Edited October 28, 2008 by Ulsterman

[demir]

Dear Demir, your analysis makes a lot of sense, because as I understand the "Gallipoli" star is a lower order than the Silver Liyakat (Merit) Medal. And it makes no sense that this particular medal would be more elaborate than its higher up brother! So I tend to see the enamelled versions as a private option. Besides I have several versions of the painted ones and some are very poor quality, while other are actually quite good metal quality, as well as finish, and that includes the pin arrangement at the back. Regards JJ

Hi,

You are right TWM is a lower medal. Article 7 of the above mentioned Regulation about the TWM dated 14.4.1333 (1914) indicates that;

Article 7: One who hasn't earned a BRONZE War Medal would not be not awarded the kind of gold and/or silver Liyakat (merit) and Imtiyaz (loyalty to the State and bravery) medals which were supposed to be received in a war. (In short one has to receive the War Medal in order to receive imtiyaz and liyakat silver and gold medal)

As is seen originally the War Medal was supposed to be BRONZE. But in a later dated Regulation (21.11.1333) changing the original one the word BRONZE was deleted.

Best wsihes

Demir ERMAN

[speedytop]

Hi,

I must come up once more.

It is absolutely indisputable that this is a Turkish medal.

Up to now I supposed that a forum is for discussions.

"Article 7: One who hasn't earned a BRONZE War Medal would not be not awarded the kind of gold and/or silver Liyakat (merit) and Imtiyaz (loyalty to the State and bravery) medals which were supposed to be received in a war."

Even other Turkish honourings were given to the general of the Infantry, the Mejidie Order 1. Class and the Imtyaz Medals in Silver and Gold.

After the TWM, see above.

Therefore this TWM (maker BB&Co) must be a war time decoration.

All the decorations of this general of the infantry are contemporary, why should he buy just a (low) foreign award post WWI?

Very often foreign governments (Turkey) sent an award with documents to the government of the owner of the decoration (Prussia), because no opportunity existed to hand over the honouring personally.

Is it possible, that the Prussian (or even before the Turkish) government changed the medal in the original envelope?

Because it was for a general of the infantry with highest Prussian and foreign (Bavaria, Saxonia, W?rttemberg, Austria, Bulgaria and other countries) awards?

Is that completely impossible/excluded?

Regards

Uwe

[Gordon Williamson]

Hi Uwe, on one of the other current threads about the War Hero Musatafa Kemal ATATURK , there is a very interesting observation about the Gallipoli Star - being a High Quality version rather than the standard issue type. Avsar and Demir's research on ATATURK indicates this could happen:

"He got his Gallipoli Star , (War Medal) 11 May 1918 by Sultan Reshad , it was written on the back of his TWM , "Sr. Exc. M.K.P." (Mustafa Kemal Pasha) , and an interesting detail for forum members , it was J.H. Werner Berlin !"

Perhaps this helps, Regards JJ

Very interesting !

At least we can see that some of those who mattered saw the German made TWM as more than "attractive doo-dads made up as fantasy items by enterprising Weimar capitalists"