Glenn J Posted June 4 Share Posted June 4 I thought it might be nice to resurrect this super thread after five years of inactivity. I was recently looking at the career structure of military justice officials and happened across this fine portrait of the then Kriegsgerichsrat Dr. Hans Boetticher at BA-MA. Of particular note in this portrait are the early pattern (pre 10 September 1935) Höherer Dienst collar patches. The later Generalrichter Dr. Boetticher was appointed as a Kriegsgerichtsrat on 28 March 1935 effective 1 March 1935. As per the 22 December 1934 regulations, he would wear the rank insignia of an Hauptmann for three years before being granted permission to adopt those of a Major. Interestingly, in the case of Dr. Boetticher, he was promoted to Oberkriegsgerichtsrat (Oberstleutnant) on 6 February 1937 with seniority from 1 February 1937. By the strict application of the regulations, therefore, he would have swapped his captain's boards for those of a lieutenant-colonel! Promoted to Oberstkriegsgerichtsrat (Oberst) effective 1 September 1939, he rose to the rank of Chefrichter (Generalmajor) on 1 November 1942. This rank pretty much appears to be ignored in the literature concerning Wehrmachtbeamte uniforms but numerous army and Luftwaffe justice officials were promoted to this rank on 1 October 1942 with subsequent further promotions of officials to this rank until the formation of the Truppensonderdienst in May 1944. I am assuming the badge of rank was that of a Generalmajor with green underlay and a light blue secondary "Nebenfarbe." Regards Glenn 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn J Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 below, a portrait of a senior Wehrmachtbeamter auf Kriegsdauer (a.K.) or wartime official. Technischer Kriegsverwaltungsrat Dr. Georg Ufer wearing the 21 March 1940 pattern insignia of an official in the high grade career with the rank insignia of a major. TKVR Dr. Ufer was a military geologist. The order stipulated that officials in this rank of the age of 40 and above wore the insignia of a Major, those below that age, that of a Hauptmann. The 21 March 1940 order further stated that the uniform of Wehrmachtbeamte a.K. was analogous to that of the Kriegsverwaltungsbeamte (with some differences in insignia). That being the case, collars and cap bands should heve been of a blue/grey colour. Photographic evidence would suggest that this was rarely implemented. Regards Glenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meyszner Posted June 8 Share Posted June 8 (edited) Great photos, Glenn. Hopefully I can add a bit to this thread myself. The only other I know of the early pattern höherer Dienst collar tabs in wear is this one, on a Reichskriegsgerichts-Oberinspektor, I believe. Full photo credit to TheMadBaron over on the WAF. As for the Beamter a. Kr., I have attached two relevant photos, one straight from the regulations regarding the uniforms of the Kriegsverwaltungsbeamte/Militärverwaltungsbeamte, and an article on Uniformen-Markt informing about the new insignia for Beamten a. Kr. and Sonderführers. I have to add I personally haven't seen one photo showing a Hellgrau collar, nor any gehobenen Dienst insignia in Hellgrau or any of the mittleren Dienst's in Feldgrau. Collars are typically the usual bottle green, middle grade insignia seem to simply be silver, and all of the lower grade insignia are of varying shades of gray. Edited June 8 by Meyszner Rearranged the photos better, to fit the text. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn J Posted June 8 Share Posted June 8 Hello Meyszner, thank you for your post and the interesting extracts from the regulations. The photograph is superb but I have to disagree with the assumption that he is a Reichskriegsgerichts-Oberinspektor. That does not work on a number of levels: The official is wearing the collar insignia of an high grade career official, the Oberinspektor belonged to the elevated career. There was no category of official at the Reichskriegsgericht in the higher career with the rank insignia of a Hauptmann. The insignia for officials of the newly formed Reichskriegsgericht was introduced per order of 31 October 1936. The collar insignia in the photo was replaced over a year previously per order of 10 September 1935. If he is indeed an army military justice official, he holds the rank of a Kriegsgerichtsrat (less than three years in post from initial appointment) or that of a Kriegsrichter. Regards Glenn 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meyszner Posted June 8 Share Posted June 8 Thanks for the correction Glenn, I went with that rank based purely on the two stars on his boards. These Beamte ranks are highly confusing and I couldn't find a lot of text to accompany the various illustrations and photos one can find online, so I really do appreciate the step by step process. I've played with the contrast of the photo a bit and I still only see two stars and no HV device, or any other device for that matter. So that could only mean he is indeed Reichskriegsgericht, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn J Posted June 8 Share Posted June 8 My pleasure. I don‘t attach too much importance to a lack of HV device on these early photographs. Note that Kriegsgerichtsrat Dr. Boetticher above is not wearing the device either. As I mentioned earlier, there were no high grade career Hauptmann equivalents in the Reichskriegsgericht and the pattern of collar Litzen had long been replaced by the two rowed variant. Regards Glenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meyszner Posted June 8 Share Posted June 8 Fair enough, thank you again. I will ask one more thing then. These early Höherer Dienst tabs were only worn by the Reichskriegsgericht and the Heeresjustizbeamte, which is what you meant by your suggestion that he could be a Kriegsrichter, yea? Any idea why that was? And why they were later dropped? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn J Posted June 8 Share Posted June 8 No, this pattern of Litzen had been worn by all officials of the higher career since 11 March 1930. In fact, the Nebenfarbe on the collar patch looks very dark (black?). Pity we don‘t have his name. Why they were changed? Your guess is as good as mine. Just a periodic change in fashion? Regards Glenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meyszner Posted June 8 Share Posted June 8 That I had no idea, neat. I've read a bunch of times it was only for those two, so that's news to me. Hmm, I will try asking TMB for his name, he might have it. Perhaps to do away with, the last "remnants" of Imperial insignia? Could really be anything. I hope this revival isn't short-lived and other members contribute. I myself have some other interesting Beamter pics, which I'll see about adding later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn J Posted June 9 Share Posted June 9 7 hours ago, Meyszner said: That I had no idea, neat. I've read a bunch of times it was only for those two This from the official order introducing the insignia (Der Rw. Minister, 11.3.30. Nr. 315/3. 30 V 3. Official of the higher career of the Reichswehr Ministry and its subordinate departments/headquarters/staffs wear a golden "Kolbenstickerei" of a special pattern instead of the previous double Litzen and embroidery. I look forward to seeing your pictures and agree with the sentiment regarding contribution by other members. Regards Glenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meyszner Posted June 9 Share Posted June 9 14 hours ago, Glenn J said: This from the official order introducing the insignia (Der Rw. Minister, 11.3.30. Nr. 315/3. 30 V 3. Official of the higher career of the Reichswehr Ministry and its subordinate departments/headquarters/staffs wear a golden "Kolbenstickerei" of a special pattern instead of the previous double Litzen and embroidery. Good to know! Looking through the photos I have saved, I realized I do in fact know of another photo of the early pattern tabs, worn by Heeresmusikinspizienten Prof. Hermann Schmidt in 1935, and orignally posted by Laurence over on the WAF. I do hope he's alright, he always had great contributions. Additionally, here's two photos of uniformed GFP officials, the lowest rank in the hierarchy, Feldpolizeiassistent(?), and a Feldpolizeisekretär, the Leutnant equivalent. Sure don't see that every day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn J Posted June 10 Share Posted June 10 (edited) 10 hours ago, Meyszner said: Heeresmusikinspizienten Prof. Hermann Schmidt in 1935 A nice photograph indeed. The Heeresmusikinspizient was still classed as a military official until 1 April 1938 when he was reclassified as a active soldier with the rank of Obermusikinspizient. Here is a later portrait showing him wearing the 1935 pattern Kolbenstickerie of the higher career officials. Interestingly, Professor Schmidt's predecessor, Oskar Hackenberger, although also an official,. wore the collar patches of an Officer of the Reichswehr Ministry. Note the un-piped collar patches. The boards of the GFP official (if that is what he is) are strange. It is difficult to ascertain whether that is a cypher and one star or two stars. The Feldpolizeiassistent wore two stars with the GFP cypher in the centre. There was no one star NCO equivalent rank. So, he either missing the cypher or presumably is not GFP. Regards Glenn Edit, just a thought: there appears to be something in a darker colour nearer the button end of the board (more clearly seen on the board on his right shoulder). Has the cypher been incorrectly applied or even a darker coloured star? Edited June 10 by Glenn J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryT Posted June 10 Share Posted June 10 I have these in my collection. I know very little about them. They're up for sale as a lot if anyone is interested. Cheers, Larry 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kriegsmarine Admiral Posted June 10 Share Posted June 10 My humble contribution to this thread. Two rare photos of Heeresfeldpostmeister Ministerialdirektor Karl Ziegler (1878-1952) at a command post somewhere on the Eastern Front, date unknown. The Heeresfeldpostmeister (Army Field Postmaster) acted as the leader of the German field post. He held the rank of Ministerialdirektor in the Reich Postal Ministry and in the Army he had the rank of Generalleutnant. On 24 August 1939, the President of the Reichspostdirektion Köln, Karl Ziegler, received the order to serve as Heeresfeldpostmeister. He served in this position until the end of the war (May 1945). The Heeresfeldpostmeister was the superior of all field post offices. He had to manage the entire field post service according to the instructions of the Quartermaster General and the postal technical orders of the Reich Post Minister. He was also responsible for the ongoing reporting and publication of the field post overview. The Heeresfeldpostmeister was also a Group Leader on the Staff of the Quartermaster General at OKH. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn J Posted June 10 Share Posted June 10 5 hours ago, Kriegsmarine Admiral said: Heeresfeldpostmeister Ministerialdirektor Karl Ziegler Hi Karlo, interesting photos. Herr Ziegler held the equivalent rank of a Generalleutnant yet I have never encountered or even found the name(s) of individuals holding the next rank down: Heeresfeldpostdirigent (Generalmajor). I assume that Ziegler's deputy would have held that rank? Regards Glenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kriegsmarine Admiral Posted June 10 Share Posted June 10 1 hour ago, Glenn J said: Hi Karlo, interesting photos. Herr Ziegler held the equivalent rank of a Generalleutnant yet I have never encountered or even found the name(s) of individuals holding the next rank down: Heeresfeldpostdirigent (Generalmajor). I assume that Ziegler's deputy would have held that rank? Regards Glenn According to this thread: http://www.die-feldpost-2-weltkrieg.org/index.php?topic=1510.0, Ziegler's deputy was Feldoberpostdirektor Dr. Werner Seebaß. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn J Posted June 10 Share Posted June 10 55 minutes ago, Kriegsmarine Admiral said: Ziegler's deputy was Feldoberpostdirektor Dr. Werner Seebaß. Hi Karlo, agreed. As this rank equated to that of an Oberst, I am wondering if there was ever a Feldpost official in the equivalent rank of a Generalmajor? Regards Glenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meyszner Posted June 11 Share Posted June 11 12 hours ago, Kriegsmarine Admiral said: Two rare photos of Heeresfeldpostmeister Ministerialdirektor Karl Ziegler (1878-1952) at a command post somewhere on the Eastern Front, date unknown. I see you don't limit yourself to only excellent photos of the Kriegsmarine, Grossadmiral. Very nice. The Feldpost are also unique in having the only einfachen Dienst grade without any stars, Feldpostbote. To my knowledge. 15 hours ago, LarryT said: I have these in my collection. I know very little about them. These are terrific, Larry. I can't tell if the penultimate photo, of the official with the dagger, is for a Sonderführer (like the last one) or for a Beamter A.Kr. A Feldgrau collar on such a nice tailored tunic would be out of place. 18 hours ago, Glenn J said: Here is a later portrait showing him wearing the 1935 pattern Kolbenstickerie of the higher career officials. Oskar Hackenberger, wore the collar patches of an Officer of the Reichswehr Ministry. The boards of the GFP official. Has the cypher been incorrectly applied or even a darker coloured star? Exceptional photos, I knew about the later transfer of musicians but I have many questions regarding why it was done, what exactly happened to musicians later in the war (retrained as soldiers?), the wear of their unique red insignia and lyre symbol, etc. As for the other one, you certainly know more than me with regards to the wear of collar patches. Are there any other photos of him? There is definitively a second, darker star on the right board, but only one star on the left one. Why that is, a mystery. The devices seem to be GFP, per the other photo, and the Nebenfarben is light enough for Hellblau. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LarryT Posted June 11 Share Posted June 11 Thank you Meyszner, Here is a closer view of the official with the dagger. Cheers, Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn J Posted June 11 Share Posted June 11 This is a unusual portrait from the Landesarchiv Baden-Württemberg: Heeresarchivdirektor Dr. Hermann Pantlen, director of the army archives in Stuttgart. Promoted to that rank on 1 October 1939, the former Württemberg field artillery Major was an official of the higher career of the army archives service with the equivalent rank of an Oberst (Pay group A1a). That being the case he should be wearing this, not to mention 2 rank stars. It seems , however, that Herr Direktor has opted to wear the uniform of his then held commissioned rank: Major d.R. Unpiped officers' collar patch and Litzen plus a light grey secondary piping on the majors' shoulder boards would seem to indicate this. So probably, a very early wartime portrait or even earlier if he still held the rank of Heeresoberarchivrat (1.4.37). Regards Glenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn J Posted June 12 Share Posted June 12 On 11/06/2024 at 02:19, Meyszner said: As for the other one, you certainly know more than me with regards to the wear of collar patches. Are there any other photos of him? I don't have another decent image of Professor Schmidt but this image of Professor Hackenberger is from this very forum: Taken somewhat later than the previous image in the period 1927 to 1929 (he died in office in 1929). The collar patches in use are now of the Doppellitzen variety but rendered in gold as per the officers of the Reichswehr ministry. It is not clear whether the patch is piped on all four sides or un-piped with the raised edges seeming a different colour. I am of the impression that this type of Litzen introduced in 1927 replaced the earlier style as seen in the earlier photograph for all the officer equivalent officials (with the nebenfarbe on three sides). Of course, in 1930 the higher grade officials whether in the Reichswehr Ministry or not received the special Kolbenstickerei of that career level. The pattern above is illustrated in Eberhard Hettler's "Uniformen der Deutschen Wehrmacht" originally published in 1939. Regards Glenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kriegsmarine Admiral Posted June 13 Share Posted June 13 On 10/06/2024 at 22:01, Glenn J said: As this rank equated to that of an Oberst, I am wondering if there was ever a Feldpost official in the equivalent rank of a Generalmajor? I don't know. Sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn J Posted June 13 Share Posted June 13 5 hours ago, Kriegsmarine Admiral said: don't know. Sorry. Karlo, nothing to be sorry for! It was a rhetorical question. I came across a very late war document at BA-MA dated in late April 1945 which shows Heeresfeldpostmeister Ziegler appointing two subordinates to control the field post operations in the North and South of the Reich. Both still holding the rank of Feldoberpostdirektor. (Seebaß and Bienko). Regards Glenn 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn J Posted Friday at 16:45 Share Posted Friday at 16:45 1939 Portrait of Ministerialregistrator Rudolf Bahlk on the staff of "Foreign Armies East", a General Staff department at Oberkommando des Heeres. Of interest is the crimson Nebenfarbe and the gold coloured collar Litzen as worn by officials of the elevated and medium careers at OKW and OKH. The Ministerial Registraturen were the only officials of the middle career who in their capacity as ministerial officials wore the crimson Nebenfarbe in conjunction with the gold coloured Litzen. However, other registry personnel at group, corps etc. also wore crimson Nebenfarbe. In the case of the latter group of officials, this was changed to white per order of 8 August 1941. John R Angolia states in his "Uniforms and Traditions of the German Army 1933-1945" Volume 2, note 19 on page 142 under the heading "Ministerialregistrator" - "crimson secondary color and gold-colored Litzen. Registration at HQs and commands: bright red secondary color and aluminium-coloured Litzen; by order (HV 41B, No. 594) dated 8 Aug 1941 the secondary colour was changed to white." Colonel Angolia does not make the situation clear. The colour of the Nebenfarbe for both the Ministerialregistrator and the registry officials at other commands and headquarters was crimson. Importantly, the Ministerialregistrator employed at OKW/OKH retained the crimson Nebenfarbe. Following the order of 16 November 1942, the gold Litzen of the officials at OKW/OKH was replaced by aluminium coloured Litzen. On page 145, the Ministerialregistrator is mistakenly listed amongst the officials of the elevated career; this rank was grouped in the medium career. (Pay group A4e). See this later picture of Ministerialregistrator Bahlk from 1943 clearly showing that his Nebenfarbe is clearly not white. Regards Glenn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meyszner Posted Saturday at 14:54 Share Posted Saturday at 14:54 Nice to see more posts! On 12/06/2024 at 16:58, Glenn J said: I don't have another decent image of Professor Schmidt but this image of Professor Hackenberger is from this very forum: No worries, I meant another of Prof. Hackenberger. Very interesting to see the passage of time through someone's career like that. On 11/06/2024 at 17:04, Glenn J said: Heeresarchivdirektor Dr. Hermann Pantlen. Do I spy a first model breast eagle, on Feldgrau? Fascinating photo. 21 hours ago, Glenn J said: Ministerialregistrator Rudolf Bahlk. And they didn't wear the alt-Preußische style of the Generalstaboffiziere? Who did then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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