Imperial fakes

[David Gregory]

@Wild Card

Thank you very much for showing the essential comparison item. I was aware that the cross and crown were separate pieces, but I hadn't seen the locking arrangement on this before.

I once had the opportunity to inspect what was considered by a number of German collectors as a good original, and noticed what I thoought was a repair to the catch. With hindsight, it would seem that I was looking at what was left of the pin locking arrangement after it had (been) broken off.

@notned

My intention is not to scare people, but simply to raise awareness of what pitfalls can await the unwary. My only experience with 1939 EK1s turned into a Floch disappointment, which, besides the spiralling prices for essentially very common awards, also put me off looking for Third Reich awards for good. Since Imperial documents offer me much more research potential, and I only collect representative examples of the awards to match them if the awards are missing from the groups, I don't want to repeat my Floch experience with Imperial awards. As collectors disenchanted with constantly improving Third Reich fakes turn to Imperial militaria, it will only be a question of time before the fake peddlers meet demand in this field, too. The only way to beat them, in my view, is to identify the fakes and reveal who sells them. Only by sharing this knowledge do we have a chance of enjoying, rather than being disappointed and frustrated by the items we crave. This is not meant to be a witch hunt, and the fake sellers can open as many new eBay accounts as they need, but I hate to see the prices that some accepted fakes seem to command in auctions in which the bidder lists are kept secret.

@Jens

Excellent idea.

If anyone else has other examples of bad sellers and fakes awards, please share them with us so that other people don't make the same mistakes again.

[David Gregory]

Has anybody bought items from German eBay seller sammler241 in the past?

He is currently offering some pieces that bear a striking similarity in terms of their rather featureless dark finish, which does not inspire confidence in me.

Your opinions would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance,

David

[saschaw]

Another slow mover, but he does sell a few with monotonous regularity - Milit?rdienstauszeichnung Baden f?r 15 Jahre, Spange for only EUR 180 offered in eBay auction #6224169758. Described as being made of solid silver, marked 800 J.PETRY on the back:

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It was me who also bought one of these bars - a really long time ago. I still have it of course. It is a crappy cast, according to Mr. Bretzendorfer and to my own eyes. The real silver bars were never cast but "gepr?gt" (and again, I can't rember the english wort, sorry )

I think NONE of the awards and decorations (and also ribons) offered by raritaetensammlerclub to be original, and cetra2003 is anyhow connected to him and sells the TR stuff at the moment, please have a lok at this great crap. I cannot imagine that buff002 is connected to him also, but I'd not buy any of his ribbon bars, too. The same, BTW, with am-militaria (or ma-militaria) from Austria ...

You can make great deals on Ebay as some of the really good stuff sells under price, but not with these three sellers

[Schießplatzmeister]

Dear Saschaw:

Thank you for sharing the counterfeit Baden long-service bar with us. A good-quality counterfeit and very scary. Note that an English translation for the word "gepr?gt" is "struck", such as in "die-struck" or "coined".

The Ebay seller "raritaetensammlerclub" has some very convincing counterfeit pieces. It is worth paying attention to these as they will undoubtedly start showing-up for sale with various dealers and at shows in the future as mistakes are made and collectors who have purchased these pieces try to unload them. It looks like most folks in Germany anyway know to stay away!

Thanks to forums such as this, the criminal (I also have other not-so-nice words for them) forgers, don't have too many places to hide and their schemes can't be as profitable as they were in days-gone-by before the internet.

Gru?,

"SPM"

[Wild Card]

Gentlemen,

For the files, I would like to offer a nice three piece galvano copy of the ever elusive Brunswick lifesaving medal.

[Wild Card]

Complete with a nice Jurgens hallmark. Incidentally, I bought this piece over fifteen years ago, so they have been around for awhile.

Regards,

Wild Card

[Mark M]

Currently listed on Evilbay.de - all yours for the mere starting price of 499 Euros.

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[Mark M]

Some close ups!

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[christerd]

I agree with Garfordhouse the quality seems to get better Some of the stuff I have seen recently I could easily bought if just the seller had been someone else

Arrgh this moron destroy our hobby .....

Christer

[ostprussenmann_new]

I was reading this posting and I believe I just saw something else sold by one of these names (2x in two weeks) for a Crown Order 4th Class with Swords each selling for over $250 Euros. Yikes!

[ostprussenmann_new]

http://gmic.co.uk/uploads/monthly_09_2011/post-12533-0-45004200-1317054113.pngThe Pour LeMerite for enlisted and NCOs was discussed at length here in another thread but merits an update for those who did not see it. Ebay seller maxmalen_0 curiously sells some copies now and then and gets impressive money for them. Among his offerings was a PLM as pictured below with markings that are fairly transparent. Note the "T" in Verdienst is not distorted as an original made during the war would have been.

Ouch, I was watching this item to see what it sold for and didn't it sell for over $500 Euros? This is crazy! Before I ever buy anything since joining this group, I always ask first. I have definitely learned a lot from everyone on her and got smarter on this collecting field.

[ostprussenmann_new]

This Medal Bar was just won on ebay also: Eisernes Kreuz 1914 ( OEK 1909 ), Kronenorden 4. Klasse mit Schwertern ( OEK 1763 ), Allgemeines Ehrenzeichen

2. Klasse ( OEK 1831 ), Militär Dienstauszeichnung für 15 Jahre ( OEK 1974 ). Getragene Spange, alle Teile

unbeschädigt, in sehr gutem Erhaltungszustand

He has it listed for $385 Euro, but I think it sold for over 700 euro.

[Phil Steele]

I had a bit of a look at some of his stuff that he sells and to be honest I do feel some of his items are the real deal. Agree that some of the medal bars are certainly fantasy but a few of the individual medals looked fine to me.

[saschaw]

I had a bit of a look at some of his stuff that he sells and to be honest I do feel some of his items are the real deal. Agree that some of the medal bars are certainly fantasy but a few of the individual medals looked fine to me.

Which ones do you mean?

[Phil Steele]

I honestly think that some of his single inexpensive medals are ok. I would never purchase a medal bar from this person as I have learnt the hard way. About 18 months or two years ago I purchased a four medal bar which unfortunatly was a put together as I later found out. Of the four medals however, the only one that was a fake and it was a crude one at that was a Silesian Eagle which had been cast in lead. The other three medals, Prussian War merit cross for aid, Oldenburg FA medal on non combat ribbon and a prussian service award were indeed all genuine medals. Having said that about the medal bars and I stress I am no expert but going on his list he sold a 4 medal bar with some 1870 medals including the Centenary medal which looks the real deal to me but I could be wrong. I cannot see why he would need to fake individual medals that are inexpensive to purchase singularly. I understand putting together fake medal bars as they can fetch good prices but I still feel he uses genuine medals in some cases.

[saschaw]

Indeed, the price range mentioned is almost safe - but I have even seen WW1 Iron Crosses 2nd class there, that just didn't feel right...

Nor would I touch any medal bar from this source.

[Wild Card]

Nor would I touch any medal bar from this source.

Frankly, I would not touch anything from this source.

I think that it has been established that he consistently offers bogus medal bars. If he is not manufacturing them, he certainly is their source to the market.

As to why he would make single pieces, why not. If he can make one, why not make a dozen at the same time? Then he has a supply from which he can make more bars in the future while selling a few individual pieces along the way.

No Gentlemen, I’m sorry but I would not give this individual my business or money no matter how good or genuine the offering might be. People of his ilk contribute nothing positive to our hobby and we are all far better off without them being a part of it.

[joe campbell]

Herr Card!

couldn't have said it any plainer.

he deserves NO ATTENTION and NO BUSINESS

based on his morals - actually, lack thereof.

contributing to him in any way validates him.

i do not claim perfection or purity, but also do

not knowingly attempt to defraud. he does.

i wonder if pulling the wings off of flies gives him pleasure....

[dond]

He deserves all the negative attention we can give him....

[Phil Steele]

All very true but when I purchased said medal bar I was not aware of him being a seller of such ill repute (fool me). And you can bet I will never purchase from him again. The point I am trying to make is that in amongst all the bad stuff is a genuine item.

Saschaw I dont doubt some of his EK'2s are not the real deal as they are indeed faked probably by the same people who fake the 1870 and 1939 EK'2. However, in response to Wild Card and I am only speaking in general terms here, do you know of anyone who is quality faking inexpensive medals like the Oldenburg FA cross, Bavarian MVK 3rd class just to name two. I dont and I have yet to see one shown on any forums. You get you odd cheaply cast in lead example but these would never fool any collector. To me the cost factor in setting up dies to accurately reproduce such medals is not worth the cost involved. They are readily available and cheap to buy so why would you bother?

And unfortunately from experience I do indeed know that some of his medals in the shoddy medal bars are the real deal.

[dond]

Considering that even the Hindy cross has been faked I would not doubt all these others have been as well. Exactly what is the cost to set up dies etc....???? Not that much in India,or Pakistan. Nor would it cost that much for a guy moonlighting at night using the same equipment that he uses for his day job.....

[Phil Steele]

Fair enough...I will admit I dont know how the fakers operate or the cost of their over heads. The only point I was trying to make was as I said not every single item in his inventory is fake which was implied and I know this from experience. I never intended to try and defend the guy or sing his praise.

Phil

[Eric Stahlhut]

^{speaking of fake EKs on eBay: a short while ago, one of our members sold two 1813 EK copies (1st and 2nd class) which were posted in the replica sales forum here on GMIC.}

^{imagine my surprise last night when i spotted them freshly listed on ebay as "jeweler's copies", and priced out at a HUGE' buy it now' 300% price markup.}

[dond]

That's not a very gentlemanly thing to do imo.....

[AOK4]

Hello,

am-militaria seems quite active on eBay selling medal bars that are put together...

This one was sold for 655 euros, but it is put together as the Finnish combination with these medals is very much improbable.