SOS Medal Bars

[tyanacek]

Hello to all,

I didn't see too many nice bars at this year's SOS. However, I did find a nice Baden Officer's bar as well as an eight-place bar to an old Prussian Officer.

The Prussian Officer's bar is a Godet assembly. The Red Eagle Order is by Wagner. The MVO4X has a real gold central medallion, but I am uncertain of the maker. (A bit of enamel damage to the lower cross arm, ouch!) The 1914-1918 Cross of Honor is by Paul Meybauer of Berlin.

Best regards,

Tom

Edited March 10, 2009 by tyanacek

[Deruelle]

Hi,

Congrats, nice find.

Christophe

[Paul C]

yes, I saw both of thoses. Either are too common for an ID. There was just not many/any really nice, affordable medal bars.

[saschaw]

Very nice ones, especially the Godet bar. Sure it is not identifiable? However, the picture is a bit small, but I'd guess the MVO is a J. Leser made one.

Edited March 10, 2009 by saschaw

[pinpon590]

Very, very nice !!!

I the Baden bar !!!

:beer:

[tyanacek]

Very nice ones, especially the Godet bar. Sure it is not identifiable? However, the picture is a bit small, but I'd guess the MVO is a J. Leser made one.

Hello Sascha,

Thank you for the assistance. I knew the MVO4X was not a Weiss or Hemmerle, so I think it is probably a Leser as you say. Did Deschler also produce the MVO4X? I have posted a larger picture of the MVO4X, which I hope will help in making a positive identification of the manufacturer.

The Red Eagle Order is clearly a Wagner by virtue of the center medallion artwork.

Thanks again for your assistance.

Best regards,

Tom

[Guest Rick Research]

Some day soon... in geological terms, anyway!

Bernd is working on a MASSIVE improvement to the Bavarian WW1 rolls published in the 1990s. Hamburg's Roll exists but thus far in an extinct form of computerese that has defied decryption of its city-transmited CD format. That is why Paper-is-our-friend.

I therefore expect that the larger bar you've picked up WILL eventually be identifiable because:

1) the BMV4X was awarded by rank, to Lieutenants and Captains. This Prussian officer therefore got it as a Captain, and Bernd's new Roll when it is published will provide astonishingly more recipients than those in the 1990s volume

2) the Red Eagle 4 was a routine award for Majors, but per above this officer must have beeen a lucky Captain to have gotten his early--and so with the updated Bavarian Roll and a 1914 Rank List will be traceable especially

3) when that dratted Hamburg Roll can be used (hint hint)

THAT is a "trio" whose distinctive circumstances should pull out a name.

Someday. Soon. The progress made by the Guild of Research Gnomes in the last 4 years has already been more than in the last 40, so every reason to be hopeful. 2009's scheduled additional Rolls will continue this golden age of never before available data.

That IS a Leser, BTW-- though yours appears to be a late war gilt centered version (in which case the silver edge of the reverse lower arm will be noticably wider than on any other arm edge) rather than a gold centered one like this:

In which case, your fellow was a REALLY lucky pre-war Captain indeed!

And here I am, forgetting my own Ricky's Immediate Rule #1-- what color is the BACKING material? Because this is just as possibly a NAVAL officer's combination....

[Ulsterman]

REOs were awarded to the Captains of companys that won the Kaisers' annual shooting prize (one per Corps).

[Guest Rick Research]

In fact, I've got ONE "ping" immediately-- though until Bernd's Bavarian Roll and that wretched Hamburg can be thoroughly examined, cannot state absoluetlely that there was ONLY one match--

Major aD Alwin Toepffer.

I'll be back in a bit with details typed in here-- have to run up and down the East Tower's stairs to get to the vast Subterranean Archive, which is NEVER fun with unlit granite steps in rain with no handrail....

First off, Daniel--whose phenomenal ability to recall every medal bar and ribbon bar grouping he has ever seen is ... supernatural... has somewhere SEEN this group. He knows Toepffer had an EK1 and was born in 1873.

Leutnant 21.04.94 (I do not have seniority suffix) in Pionier Bataillon 17

Oberleutnant: ernannt 01.10.01 in 4./ PB 17 as of 1902, permanant Patent of rank 18.07.03 N3n

Hauptmann ernannt 11.09.07 in 1./ Pionier Bataillon 4 in 1910 with LUCKY Red Eagle earned 1907-10; permanent patent of rank 27.01.11 B2b

by 1912 assigned to staff of Kriegschule (for training officer cadet ensigns) Hersfeld

Major 28.12.16 E

and retired in that rank, indicating he resigned immediately rather than serve the Weimar Republic.

BMV4X indeed awarded in Gold Time 15 January 1915 but unfortunately the Bavarians listed pre-war units as a wartime security measure, so I have no information on what his wartime unit actually was.

But these 1914-18 awards match. There were no others to him. A good prospect for the final identification given the unusual trio.

Edited March 11, 2009 by Rick Research

[tyanacek]

That IS a Leser, BTW-- though yours appears to be a late war gilt centered version (in which case the silver edge of the reverse lower arm will be noticably wider than on any other arm edge) rather than a gold centered one like this:

In which case, your fellow was a REALLY lucky pre-war Captain indeed!

And here I am, forgetting my own Ricky's Immediate Rule #1-- what color is the BACKING material? Because this is just as possibly a NAVAL officer's combination....

Hello Rick,

Thank you once again for sharing your expertise. Just a bit of confusion, though, on my part. Are you saying then, that my Leser MVO4X has a silver gilt center? I know it doesn't look like it in the picture, but in-hand and in good light, I would swear that mine has a real gold center. The reverse lower cross arm does not have a wider edge on mine. Does the wider-edged, lower reverse cross arm imply silver gilt center or real gold center?

The backing material on my bar is light gray. I have attached a picture of the medal bar reverse, plus a closeup picture showing the normal width lower reverse cross arm of the MVO4X.

Best regards,

Tom

[Wild Card]

yes, I saw both of thoses. Either are too common for an ID. There was just not many/any really nice, affordable medal bars.

Hi Paul,

I think that the operative word here is ?affordable?. While not at the level of Gunzenhausen, Kassel

or Stuttgart, I would say that I saw a fair number of really nice bars.

Either way, a good time was had by all.

Best wishes,

Wild Card

[Guest Rick Research]

Excellent. Just my mis-interpretation of your scan-- you have a Golden Hubcap indeed-- which accords perfectly with award date to Prime Suspect (so far).

Wish I could be MORE absolute on the ID, but when Bernd's Bavarian Roll comes out that will be a collecting-changing moment for us, research-wise. As one of the most CRUCIAL yet common awards found in bars, to know for CERTAIN at long last about the vast majority of non-Bavarian officers who did NOT go into the Reichswehr will allow for identifications we can only guess at now.

[Daniel Krause]

:rolleyes:

...Elefants do always remember....

Here is Alwin in the Weimar time.

[Paul C]

Great pick up

Edited March 11, 2009 by Paul C

[Guest Rick Research]

YEEHAW !!!!!!!

Well well well. Thanks to MAGIC Daniel--

the strange precedence of the SOS medal bar (Red Eagle and XXV ahead of Hindenburg) is NOW explained--

and we need seek no further. Toepffer it is:

Look at the ribbon drapes. This is the EXACT combination he was wearing, with the Ehrenlegion Medal removed, Hindenburg Cross tipped in, and Hungarian medal added to the end. His 1920s medal bar was "skinned" and lifted virtually intact to be resewn down as his 1934+ medal bar.

THERE, my friends, is PROOF whose bar this was-- there he is WEARING it.

And this from the 1912 Rank List of pioneer officers, showing born 8 August 1893 and joined the army 31 October 1892:

The only actual wartime service I've found for Toepffer was his command of Pionier Bataillon 29 for only one month-- appointed 18 December 1916 and replaced on 19 Januray 1917.

Zauberdaniel! Wooo wooo wooo !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :cheers:

[Guest Rick Research]

Paul's got a similar "flensed" medal bar-- peeled out with awards still attached to each other while newer ones were just stuck in rather than remounting the whole:

http://gmic.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=2053&hl=Meyer+Vogt

And again, photos establish absolutely that the bars are the SAME from identical ribbon folds. :cheers:

[Paul C]

For those of you who think the tracing of medal bar and ribbon bars is voodoo magic this example is proof positive that it is not! It just takes knowledge and hard work. Oh yes and money for the ranklists and award rolls!

[Komtur]

Well done gentleman :beer:

[tyanacek]

OMG! How cool is that?

Thanks to everyone who responded to this thread and a very special THANK YOU to both Rick and Daniel. You guys are absolutely amazing.

I think I'm almost as excited about the how/why of the Hindenburg Cross placement as I am about the identification of the medal bar.

With sincere gratitude,

Tom

[Guest Rick Research]

Sometimes we scare even ourselves.

:cheeky:

[Ed_Haynes]

How lucky to have the photo!

[Guest Rick Research]

Yassss.... it is always nice to have period visual confirmation of our amazing demi-divine talents! Some people doubt (St.John 20:25) in moments of weakness. :cheeky:

[Paul C]

Are you sure that quote is from St. John or St. Ricky, the patron Saint of medalbar collectors.