Mongolia ORDER OF THE POLAR STAR

[Ed_Haynes]

I can dig some out and add weights. But there are two cautions:

1- I am becoming increasingly distrustful of the Polar Star typology we have evolved here. As records of serial number ranges expand, I think there are simnply pockets of minor sub-sub-sub-variations, essentially manufacturing "noise" that say nothing of the history of the award and may or may not be of any interest, even to the most compulsive type collector. When I get brave, I shall stick my neck out and propoise an alternative typology; I just wish I had more documented award dates to overlay some chronology.

2- Weights can so easily be altered by the very common shortening of the length of the screw post, more common on things like the Polar Star (in part due to the very large numbers awarded). We can take the screw plate off (though I think these are of fairly standard weights), but can do nothing about shortened screwplates that make much more difference in weight.

[Vatjan]

I do agree with the fact that over-categorization does not help forward our knowledge about this order, but as mentionned in the Soviet award section, having knowledge about these production pockets of sub-sub-sub types, does give us a better defense against future fakes. Unfortunately these fakes will arrive, and with the technology at hand they will probably be good, se we need all the knowledge we have, not necessarily for type collecting but as a safeguard.

IMHO anyway

Jan

Edited November 4, 2006 by Vatjan

[Eric Gaumann]

Thanks Ed and JC. That was the info I needed.

Basically just weights with which to compare other orders by (OMM, ORBL &c)

[Ed_Haynes]

OK, Eric, let me know if you need more data points.

[Lingqi]

curved up Monetnyi Dvor mintmark

Hi Glen, there were two Polar Stars T2 with SN 635 & 636 in my collection. They are so close to your 638, which is interesting.

[Ed_Haynes]

Very interesting. When research becomes a possibility, maybe we'll get some answers regarding the existence of this and other such clusters "in captivity".

[Ed_Haynes]

OK, just to update the "full" typology, treating all sub-varieties and "mint burps" as real:

A 31/M 12.1 -- Type 1 (Screwback; МОНДВОР mintmark; long oval design with two red banners, ~300 awarded) -- Low = 701/High = 792; 1936-39

A 32.1/M 12.2 -- Type 2.1 (Screwback; upward-curved МОНЕТНЫЙ ДВОР mintmark; Uighur; SN at 6 o'clock near bottom) -- Low = 9/High = 2831; 1940-41

A 32.2/M 12.2 -- Type 2.2 (Screwback; downward-curved МОНЕТНЫЙ ДВОР mintmark; Uighur; SN directly below screwpost) -- Low = 1151/High = 2878; 1941-??

Type 2.3 (Screwback; no mintmark; Uighur; SN at 7 o?clock) -- Low = 1562/High = ????; 1937

Type 2.4 (Screwback; hand-engraved МОНЕТНЫЙ ДВОР mintmark; Uighur; SN at 6 o'clock near bottom) -- Low = 1710/High = 1776

A 32.2/M 12.3 -- Type 3.1 (Screwback; Cyrillic; slightly concave reverse; SN at 7 o'clock) -- Low = 2/High = 6952; 19??-??

A 32.2/M 12.3 -- Type 3.2 (Screwback; Cyrillic; flat reverse; SN directly below screwpost) -- Low = 5094/High = 9941; 19??-??

A 32.2/M 12.3 -- Type 3.3 (Screwback; Cyrillic; flat reverse; SN at 6 o'clock) -- Low = 10007/High = 15000; 19??-70

A 33.3/M 12.4 -- Type 4.1 (Pinback, silver) -- Low = 15015/High = 30426; 1970-2003

A 33.4 -- Type 4.2 (pinback, bronze) -- Low = 31650/High = 39785; 2003?

A 33.4 -- Type 4.3 (pinback, bronze, no serial number, unawarded escapee?)

Edited November 12, 2006 by Ed_Haynes

[GlennC]

Hi Ed,

You can change Low number from Type 2.4 (hand-engraved ???????? ???? mintmark ) form to 1753 to 1710

[Ed_Haynes]

Done, Glenn. Thanks!

Edited November 12, 2006 by Ed_Haynes

[Eric Gaumann]

Could I get an approximate award date of my 3.1 #4630 please?

My guess is 1955 +/- 10 years. I hope it can be narrowed down some.

BTW, these were manufactured in Mongolia, correct? In Ulaanbaatar? Was there a single Mongolian State mint back in the '50s and '60s?

[Gerd Becker]

Could I get an approximate award date of my 3.1 #4630 please?

My guess is 1955 +/- 10 years. I hope it can be narrowed down some.

BTW, these were manufactured in Mongolia, correct? In Ulaanbaatar? Was there a single Mongolian State mint back in the '50s and '60s?

Eric, as far as i know and as the quality speaks for itself, i assume, these were produced in the Soviet Union. I hope, someone corrects me, if i am wrong.

Gerd

[Ed_Haynes]

I would, of course, assume that any order marked "МОНЕТНЫЙ ДВОР" was made in the USSR. Further, I'd guess that all ascrewbacks were Soviet made. Pinbacks? I'd wager they're Mongol-made, but until someone actually looks at the sources and relevant purchase orders these are just guesses.

[Vatjan]

I would, of course, assume that any order marked "МОНЕТНЫЙ ДВОР" was made in the USSR. Further, I'd guess that all ascrewbacks were Soviet made. Pinbacks? I'd wager they're Mongol-made, but until someone actually looks at the sources and relevant purchase orders these are just guesses.

According to Herfurth, from the 1960's onwards orders were made in UB but also in Budapest, Hungaria.

[Ed_Haynes]

According to Herfurth, from the 1960's onwards orders were made in UB but also in Budapest, Hungaria.

Interesting. Quite interesting, Jan. I do not have Herfurt.

You wonder where he got his information, as much now seems wrong in the light of current knowledge.

[Vatjan]

You wonder where he got his information, as much now seems wrong in the light of current knowledge.

I agree, I just though it was worth mentionning, or at least not discard the info offhand.

[Ed_Haynes]

I agree, I just though it was worth mentionning, or at least not discard the info offhand.

Absolutely correct! We have to put every such scrap of information on the table!

Some day, I probably ought to chase down a copy of his book, I guess.

[Vatjan]

Some day, I probably ought to chase down a copy of his book, I guess.

This info is not in his book but in the introduction he has written in his Soviet-Mongol priceguide.

This should not be too hard to find if you don't have it

Edited November 23, 2006 by Vatjan

[Eric Gaumann]

I would, of course, assume that any order marked "МОНЕТНЫЙ ДВОР" was made in the USSR. Further, I'd guess that all screwbacks were Soviet made. Pinbacks? I'd wager they're Mongol-made, but until someone actually looks at the sources and relevant purchase orders these are just guesses.

Eric, as far as i know and as the quality speaks for itself, i assume, these were produced in the Soviet Union.

Thank you Gentlemen. I'm very new to Mongolian ODMs but the quality does seem to indicate Soviet manufacture of the screwback orders. I wonder if the Mongolian gov't placed large orders for these awards at one point in, say, the early 50s and then slowly awarded them until at some point they were either all awarded or they (the Mongol gov't) got their own mint up and running (where they implemented the pinback attachment)?

[Jacky]

Hi Gents,

I had won the 3rd lottery of GMIC and got a mongolian order of the Polar star.

Screwback,

number 3991

Said to be a 1941 type.

Could anyone give me information about this medal or its decorandus??

Kind regards,

Jacky.

[fjcp]

HI there Jacky,

I hope you like the order and if possible could you please post a picture or two of it?

From the order date/variation thread, the best I could do as far as issue date is concerned is the follwing:

Order of Polar Star 3,917 30/12/1956 Screwback; Cyrillic

So my guess is that yours might be from late 1957 or so.

Cheers

JC (Floor)

[Vatjan]

I had won the 3rd lottery of GMIC and got a mongolian order of the Polar star.

Screwback, number 3991

Said to be a 1941 type.

Could anyone give me information about this medal or its decorandus??

Hi Jacky,

General information about the order can be found in this thread, more specific information about your order is quite hard to give.

Numbers cannot, as yet, be researched and the "award-date-related-to-the-number" listing is very chaotic for the Polar star, so no help there either I'm afraid.

Jan

[Vatjan]

Order of Polar Star 3,917 30/12/1956 Screwback; Cyrillic

So my guess is that yours might be from late 1957 or so.

Cheers

JC (Floor)

Very dangerous declaration JC, seeing OPS 4929 was awarded on 5-11-1955 and OPS 2506 on 30-12-1956.

Not much of a system to be found in OPS awardings I'm afraid

Jan

Edited November 27, 2006 by Vatjan

[Ed_Haynes]

Jan is, of course, absolutely correct. To call the Polar Star "chaotic" may well be the understatement of the century. And while I'd like to think the availability of award rolls will help in soring it out, I cannot have such ambitious hopes.

Edited November 27, 2006 by Ed_Haynes

[Jacky]

Thank you all for your efforts,

I'm still curious about this order.

About the pictures,

I don't have a camera and scanning the star isn't really possible due to it's convex shape..

Kind regards,

Jacky

[fjcp]

Very dangerous declaration JC, seeing OPS 4929 was awarded on 5-11-1955 and OPS 2506 on 30-12-1956.

Not much of a system to be found in OPS awardings I'm afraid

Jan

Point taken, didn't realize just how chaotic it was!!

So Jacky, just pretend I didn't write that!!

So by the looks of things whenever they needed one they just grabbed one from the safe and assigned it!!

Way to go!

JC