Elmar Lang Posted May 15, 2011 Posted May 15, 2011 Hello, this is the Große Ordensspange belonged to General Eugen Ritter von Zoellner. It comes directly from his heirs and -together with his complete group of orders and decorations, it will be offered in auction soon. Best wishes, Elmar Lang
Wild Card Posted May 15, 2011 Posted May 15, 2011 What a fantastic bar! Absolutely Can you tell us what off the bar orders make up this set?
Elmar Lang Posted May 15, 2011 Author Posted May 15, 2011 (edited) Hello, here's the picture of the whole group of orders & decorations. The ribbons are lost, since all pieces were put together in a frame. Along with the group there are many interesting papers and some pictures. As you can see, in the group there are some rare pieces: the Red Eagle Cross with swords is in gold, same as the Bavarian Military Merit Order with star; the Crown Order with Swords (Württemberg) is also in gold; the other pieces are in gilt silver or silver and the austrian Iron Crown 2nd Class with War Decoration is a fine piece in gilt bronze. Back to the Ordensspange, the MVO III Class, the Order of the Bavarian Crown and the Turkish medal are in gold. Best wishes, Elmar Lang Edited May 15, 2011 by Elmar Lang
saschaw Posted May 16, 2011 Posted May 16, 2011 Stunning, thanks for showing! What I like best is the Bavarian order of the crown on the medal bar. How often do we see these? Plus I think it was that which made him a Ritter? No MMJO in the group, apparently.
Elmar Lang Posted May 16, 2011 Author Posted May 16, 2011 Hello Sascha, actually, Gen. v. Zoellner didn't receive the MMJO, he became Ritter -as you correctly noticed- when was awarded with the Order of the Bavarian Crown. Among the papers that will be part of the group, there is the letter from the Königl. Bayerische Reichsherold (dated Sept. 4th, 1917) announcing the award of the Crown Order (happened on Aug. 23rd 1917), the elevation to the Ritterstand and a heraldic proposal for a coat-of-arms "Für den Fall, daß sie ein eigenes Familienwappen nicht besitzen sollten...". Among the various papers, there also is a framed picture, that I find very touching: his last official appearing on Sept. 1st, 1944, on the occasion of his 60 years military jubilee, wearing his Bavarian uniform and Pickelhaube, orders and decorations. Best wishes, E.L.
Elmar Lang Posted May 16, 2011 Author Posted May 16, 2011 (edited) Hello, all the orders, decorations and papers composing the von Zoellner group are visible at http://www.sangiorgi...I+E+DECORAZIONI (lots 37 to 47), with some good detail pictures. Best wishes, Elmar Lang Edited May 16, 2011 by Elmar Lang
Claudio Posted May 16, 2011 Posted May 16, 2011 (edited) Thanks Elmar for showing this amazing group with a great story to tell. I cannot stop thinking, if this group will be auctioned, how much will be sold for. Hopefully this group will be kept together, but I seriously doubt it, also due to the high value on nowadays market of each piece. Ciao, Claudio Edited May 16, 2011 by Claudio
VtwinVince Posted May 16, 2011 Posted May 16, 2011 That is the nicest grouping I have seen in years. Hopefully a rich, philanthropic collector will keep it all together.
Chris Boonzaier Posted May 16, 2011 Posted May 16, 2011 That is the nicest grouping I have seen in years. Hopefully a rich, philanthropic collector will keep it all together. That would be great... but I doubt anyone could afford it... Would have needed to be a Museum donation to keep it together...
Wild Card Posted May 16, 2011 Posted May 16, 2011 Stunning, thanks for showing! What I like best is the Bavarian order of the crown on the medal bar. How often do we see these? Exactly. That was my immediate first impression as well. As a matter of fact, I can not recall having seen one of these on a medal bar before. To Chris Boonzaier, et al. - There are collectors who can afford the entire lot. There are collectors, many of them among us, who appreciate the importance of keeping the entire lot together. The question is whether there is a collector out there who can afford the entire lot and who appreciates the importance of keeping the entire lot together.
Chris Boonzaier Posted May 16, 2011 Posted May 16, 2011 who can afford the entire lot and who appreciates the importance of keeping the entire lot together. Bingo. How I wish I were that person... :-(
Dave Danner Posted May 17, 2011 Posted May 17, 2011 Exactly. That was my immediate first impression as well. As a matter of fact, I can not recall having seen one of these on a medal bar before. To Chris Boonzaier, et al. - There are collectors who can afford the entire lot. There are collectors, many of them among us, who appreciate the importance of keeping the entire lot together. The question is whether there is a collector out there who can afford the entire lot and who appreciates the importance of keeping the entire lot together. Actually, I'm not sure even that matters. The way the auction is set up, you would have to outbid everyone interested in the various neck and breast badges alone before you even got to the lots which are most attributable, the medal bar (lot 0046) and the document group (lot 0047). Even if you had the resources and the desire to keep the group together, you would have to be deterred by the fact that you would have a series of potential fights long before you had any chance of knowing it would pay off. You would budget your fight on how much it was worth for the entire group, and how much room you had in each piece, but the guy who only wants a BMV2XmSt or a RAO2X only has to know how much he's willing to spend on that. And there are plenty of so-called collectors who don't care about Zoellner or the history, but only about how much the big pretty enamel ones are worth. If they put the medal bar and document lots first, maybe one person could keep it together. If I already won those, I would feel slightly more comfortable in a bidding war for the others, but if I didn't even know if I would get the medal bar and documents, how much would I be wiiling to fight for what is otherwise just another EK1 or even a really nice RAO2X.
Wild Card Posted May 17, 2011 Posted May 17, 2011 You are 100% correct Dave. Been there, done that - :angry:
Wild Card Posted May 17, 2011 Posted May 17, 2011 · Hidden by Wild Card, May 18, 2011 - Double post Hidden by Wild Card, May 18, 2011 - Double post You are 100% correct Dave. Been there, done that - :angry:
kapten_windu Posted May 17, 2011 Posted May 17, 2011 Dave, yes, the ''war'' between bidders can't be avoided.. Anyway, can someone guess it's entire value??
Claudio Posted May 17, 2011 Posted May 17, 2011 Hi Elmar, Is there also a picture of the reverse of the medal bar? I can't find it on the catalogue... Thanks for showing... ciao, Claudio
Claudius Posted May 17, 2011 Posted May 17, 2011 Hopefully this group will be kept together, but I seriously doubt it, also due to the high value on nowadays market of each piece. Ciao, Claudio Diaspora... If I may offer a silver-lining to this very likely division of this wonderful group is that in this day and age, electronic photographs preserve what once was there. Records of sale from an auction purchase can also be used to trace a single piece back to its original owner even decades later (if the bill of sale are kept).
Elmar Lang Posted June 6, 2011 Author Posted June 6, 2011 Hello, I would like to add some more details to complete this thread about General von Zoellner's group: some of the related papers and the last photo of the general, taken in 1944 on the day of his 60th military jubilee. Best wishes, Elmar Lang
Elmar Lang Posted June 6, 2011 Author Posted June 6, 2011 Letters to von Zoellner (on top, one from the Reichsarbeitsführer K. Hierl)
Elmar Lang Posted June 6, 2011 Author Posted June 6, 2011 (edited) An enlargement of a picture taken in September 1944, on Gen. von Zoellner's last official appearance, on the occasion of his 60th Military Jubilee: all the decorations belonging to the group, illustrated in the first page of this thread, are visibly worn. Edited June 6, 2011 by Elmar Lang
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