Bulgaria FAKE BULGARIAN ORDERS ON THE MARKET

[Graf]

Hi Relentless,

 

Welcome to the Club.

Thank you for the nice pictures

The other Orders are amazing Especially the Order for Civil merit 1st Class for ladies Set with original box and picture of the awarded person

Regarding the SS Cyril and Methodius Cross I agree with you that the Star on the photo with King Boris looks the same, however we have been discussing for a while a strange Set with blue enamel inside the both central medallions -similar to the one in Tallinn Museum Such sets appeared in the market 2-3 years ago One of them was sold in Holland The Set had the same Sash as the one in Tallinn About the same time was reported by one of our members

Now a similar Set appeared for sale as "Collectors copy" The good news is the seller provides very detailed pictures and we can compare it with the well known originals

All those Sets have also one thing in common the back of the flames on the crosses are not enameled

The discussed Sejalvo Cross and supposedly existing Stars are also considered as original, however more modern version. They were ordered by the current Monarch King Simeon in around 1970s. At that time he was living in exile in Spain

The official maker of this Order The Austrian firm Rothe made them during the both King Ferdinand and King Boris period up till the end of WW2

There were fiw Sets that were made after the war up to the 1960s for the collectors market using the original dies and supposedly left over materials After the firm was closed there is a big question what has happened with the dies for many Orders not only Bulgarian ones

Supposedly those post war sets by Rothe  had marks that they deffer from the old oriignal to reflect the time they were made, however nobody has had a detailed research of  those facts

Our tusk is to find out whether those crosses  and sets were made more recently using the original dies or made by this purpose new dies i.e words whether those Sets are copies with less little value for the collectors and the market. Once this is identified it is up to the collector to decide whether he/she can have them in their collection and how much they are willing to spend

We here on those forums try to establish the truth using our knowledge and the existing facts

 

Regards

 

 

[new world]

On 21/05/2019 at 11:02, Relentless said:

Dear Sirs,

I would like to add the above picture of Tzar Boris III. The breast star looks very much like the one in the Orders and Decorations museum in Tallinn, Estonia. You can see photos below...

 

 

Boris is certainly wearing old style star.

Look how dark are wings around the head in the center, they are dark (red) color like on old designs, not grey color like on new star. 

 

[Bayern]

Gentlemen ,Cejalvo with C and not S is a old Spanish manufacturer of orders and medals I suggest a visit to the site www condecoracionescejalvo. es / 

[Graf]

56 minutes ago, Bayern said:

Gentlemen ,Cejalvo with C and not S is a old Spanish manufacturer of orders and medals I suggest a visit to the site www condecoracionescejalvo. es / 

Hi Bayern,

 

Thank you for noticing the typo mistake.

It is human.  As interesting fact -few months ago Australia Mint printed new 50 Dollars notes It took more then 6 months till a collector discovered a spelling mistake, which was repeated three times in the small print (noticeable only with high magnification) The Australia Mint already printed 400 000 000 notes valued 2 Billions Dollars  Because of the high volume this note will be not a "rare" bird The Spoke person for the Mint stated that it will not be removed from circulation, however the next print will be with the correct spelling

I know it is with C not S

I have seen recent makes of the Cejalvo Firm of mainly Spanish Orders, however the quality is not as good as the items made by the same firm long time ago

 

Regards

[Bayern]

Graf , My pleasure.

[ilieff]

In relation to the Order of SS Cyril and Methodius,

Just a humble note on my behalf,

In his book, Prince Romanoff distinguishes two types of badges: he calls them 'badge' and 'lesser badge'. The latter is the type of badge which we're currently discussing - smaller in size and having a more pronounced shade of azure. Unfortunately, there's no actual image of the badge he's referring to in the book.

Nevertheless, note that the size of the badge we're discussing is noticeably smaller than the 'default' 75mm wide arm span. This can be easily observed in one of the above images where it's shown beside the breast star (which, again, tend to differ in size but we can assume it's one of the generic ones, measuring at about 75mm wide).

Naturally, we should not assume that everything written by Romanoff is true, but at least it's a fact that by the time of printing (early 80s), these badges have already been around for some time and have been treated as genuine, plus it's highly plausible that His Majesty King Simeon II has provided exclusive insight into the topic which, in theory, can indirectly prove that these are genuine badges, perhaps produced by appointment of the King himself while in exile. 

 

Another footnote I wanted to add is that both Pavlov and Petrov cite an article which states that Zimmermann of Pforzheim have also minted C&M orders (perhaps in late 30's/ early 40's). Personally, I haven't seen any markings, other than Rothe, which seem to have minted both major variations of the star/badge. 

[Graf]

Hi Ilieff,

 

Thank you for your input into the discussion.

Yes, The Prince Romanoff book was not the most precise one, however for the time was the best one, Also he had access to some of the Orders that not many others had.

My main problem with the Set  currently on sale is the quality of the items.

It was the highest Order and we can assume that  the quality has to be the highest.

At least the seller, considering the quality of the Set, has described it as "Collectors Copy".

My question is are those starnge Sets Collectors copy made at some point to meet the collectors demand or they are fakes made to fool the collectors

 

 

We can assume that not only Rothe made the Order The firm Zimmerman, in my opinion, was given the tusk to produce few of the 'juwelled" Sets.

I hope you can give us more information regarding the King Simeon II Model.

Although those Orders were made after the World War Two because he was the King in exile those orders are considered to be genuine and they have collectors value

It is believed that the Spanish Firm Cejalvo produced them

One of the question, which is open- Did  King Simeon II ordered Sets or only Lesser Collar Crosses.

 

Regards

 

 

 

 

 

 

[new world]

Based on the information provided this set for sale by eMedals is not real. 

Dealer knows something that made him describe these awards as copies. If he could he would have happily sell them as originals and would have asked much higher price. He is a dealer after all and I never saw a dealer voluntarily downgrading value of the items he's selling.  

Did anyone ask Barry what's the story behind these medals? I'd be curious to know what he says.  

[Graf]

The Set was just sold on eMedals Auction for $ 8521 including the commission fees That is above the prices of  similar Sets recently sold in the range of 5-6000 EURO on different Auctions in EUROPE

 

 

What I found very disturbing is the fact that the seller has listed for the last few days at least 20-25 Collectors Copies of a  high Classes of different Orders from Europe It looks like he got them from one source

Are they  collectors copies??

Edited May 30, 2019 by Graf

[new world]

These don't even look like collectors copies, which are supposed to be exact replica of the originals. 

I've seen some high quality copies made for collectors, they were practically indistinguishable from the originals. The idea is that collectors can purchase copies that look exactly like originals, from the same materials (silver, enamels) or from same looking substitutes (i.e. gold plated instead of pure gold). Such copies were made because originals were impossible to obtain due to rarity or prohibitive price. Also, those copies did not cost $8,000, more like hundreds of dollars.

These items sold by eMedals look more like fantasy pieces.

 

 

[922F]

Several of the lower grade German State ones look the same as or similar to items appearing in various Klenau auctions in the 1970's and later in Spink and other UK auctions [usually sold as copies there].  Then they were considered ex-Blass.  Overall-Hatswell's collection included these types with some auctioned in the past 3-5 years, again usually offered as copies.   O-H may have commissioned things like Prussian Black Eagle, Red Eagle, & Crown stars/badges with 'ribbons' of other Orders, including Garter, Ernestine, and Russian, some made out of genuine stars.  

[new world]

16 hours ago, 922F said:

Several of the lower grade German State ones look the same as or similar to items appearing in various Klenau auctions in the 1970's and later in Spink and other UK auctions [usually sold as copies there].  Then they were considered ex-Blass.  Overall-Hatswell's collection included these types with some auctioned in the past 3-5 years, again usually offered as copies.   O-H may have commissioned things like Prussian Black Eagle, Red Eagle, & Crown stars/badges with 'ribbons' of other Orders, including Garter, Ernestine, and Russian, some made out of genuine stars.  

What you are saying is that some of these "copies" were made from leftover parts, such as unrelated, generic star bases, with newly manufactured elements on top of them.

[922F]

Replying to New World, yes and no.  Ex-Blass and similar ones are mainly 100% repro made in Spain & Thailand in the 1970's and '80's.  Gold badges of this sort are solid, not hollow.  A few of his [mainly Bavarian like Max Josef] apparently had some original components, likely ex-Hemmerle or Zimmerman, melded with new parts.  Overall-Hatswell material mainly used original pieces 'augmented' with modern constructed appurtenances.  Among other characteristics, these may be easily distinguished by their much cruder fastening nuts and clumsy bandrole curvatures.  O-H star reverses may also have forged or 'relocated' maker/jeweler plates

[Graf]

Hi922F,

Thank you for the information.

I feel very happy that I started this topic.

I think we are much more informed then many  "Lone wolfs" collectors who are not members of any club.

In my opinion  the making of such pieces has no not stopped for a moment

Only they are not made constantly It takes time to make the dies and the parts. then to try the market how will response to them.

I have noticed that many high end WW2 German items such as KC of EK appeared on the market almost of the same time on the sites of Dealers in North America and Europe. All those crosses and high end items were in "mint" conditions Discovered in some places, where they were unnoticed for nearly 70 years and more

I have heard that in recent years some Orders were made using de-assembled Originals Those "new Originals" were so good that they are sold as Originals on few Auctions around Europe

Well, till the demand is there there will be efforts to satisfy the market.

Our role is to get educated and not to get into the traps, however we cannot help those collectors out there who buy such items believing that they are getting the real period pieces

 

[922F]

Quite true Graf!   Thank you for beginning this topic, even though we have strayed a bit for the initial focus as usual in scholastic endeavors.  Always useful to educate oneself!

And as to 3rd Reich, the Slovak State, and NDH Croatia [at a minimum] remember that several original manufacturers had their 'approved' dies, punches [including German LDO & Slovak "K"],  ribbon, and the rest 'in stock' and on hand for decades.  One of the best known examples of original makers exploiting the opportunity, Souval of Wein, openly advertised copies struck from original dies for sale as late as the mid-1970's.  Most of their output lacked any type of information that the item had been made after 1945.  Except for perhaps die wear it would be impossible to detect copies from such sources.

There's also the sometimes all to human propensity to convince oneself that a object or concept is genuine even if all signs and evidence point to the opposite, especially if one invested serious time, effort and or expense in acquiring it.

Edited June 2, 2019 by 922F

[ilieff]

Hi all,

Thanks to the director of the Royal Fund of King Boris and Queen Jovanna,  we have acquired some exclusive insight to the mysterious azure Cyril and Methodius crosses we were discussing lately.

These certainly aren't Cejalvo products as some theories suggested (though yes, C&M crosses have been minted by them upon appointment of HM The King).

Among the Royal collection at present, there are two such azure orders of different grades. At least one of them has been acquired by a third party via a Klenau auction in 1978 and later donated to the Royal Collection. This information is in line with 922F's comment above. I'd be happy if anyone has the old 1978 Klenau catalogues and is able to cite what the description of these orders was at that time. 

Either way, these two orders are being treated as genuine at present. This means that regardless of their actual background, their authenticity is currently not being questioned by the nominal awarding body itself.

So, is anyone in possession of the above-mentioned catalogue? 

 

 

[Graf]

Hi Ilieff,

 

Thank you for the great work.

That is a big step in the solving the puzzle of this strange Set/Cross of the SS Cyril and Methodius.

Obviously the Sets and crosses sold by eMedals and various Auctions and Dealers are not Cejalvo work made by the appointment of HM  King Simeon

I have couple of questions:

Did you see the Cejalvo Sets  or Crosses of the Orde.r According to the those not confirmed theories only Crosses were made by this firm. You stated "(though yes, C&M crosses have been minted by them upon appointment of HM The King)".  I am following a link which, hopefully, will give me some more light on this question.

Second question-  you stated " Among the Royal collection at present, there are two such azure orders of different grades."  Are those SS Cyril and Methodius azure orders or other orders?

 

 

[922F]

Hello All and sincere thanks to Ilieff for this precious information!

I had and still may have 1978 Klenau auction catalogs; will try to recoup them and post results here.  Seem to recall that the reverse cover of a catalog illustrated in color one of the 'azure' sets. 

Gustav Tammann had a 1940's C & M small collar with a much later thin arm badge that he said was Cejalvo work.  He  had a new star with that collar, most likely a 1960's Rothe.   I don't recall whether he identified that star's maker or any details of the star at all.   He sold these after buying Count Ciano's collar, badge & star which then sold at the UBS auction. 

[Great Dane]

Is this the one you're referring to:

Klenau auction 156 (lot 53). December 1978.

"St. Cyrill- und Methodius-Orden. Ordenskreuz. Silber vergoldet. 75 x 75 mm. Am Ring. Klenau 4435. Äusserst seltenes, altes Exemplar"

(Same object could be in several Klenau auctions if it didn't sell...)

Edited June 5, 2019 by Great Dane
Added auction date

[Graf]

Hi Great Dane,

Do you have the Auction Catalog If you have can you list picture of the Order

I found one for sale on internet

One thing emerges as a fact that Cejalvo Crosses could have been paired with late -postwar Stars to make Sets

The question remains who and when those Mystery crosses with blue enamel were made.

Whether they are post war Rothe work and someone copied them later on to make those crude sets recently sold on eMedals site.

[Great Dane]

Here is the photo from that catalog

BTW - Hammer price was 2.800 DM

 

[Graf]

Hi Great Dane,

Thank you for the picture

 

Without seeing a color picture I can tell you that this is a real one, also the size is correct

75 x75 mm

The cross with the blue enamel discussed on the Forum and sold on eMedals site is much smaller 59 x59 mm

 

 

[ilieff]

Hi,

Thank you for the information Great Dane!

@Graf No, unfortunately, I haven't personally seen the royal collection. Hopefully, one day I will be able to do so and provide further insight. 

At this point of time, I'd assume that Cejalvo minted stars, as well as crosses, simply because we cannot proof otherwise.  Even so, if there are no markings on the stars (like some other post-war semi-legal pieces) then we cannot disproof this either. 

Answer to 2nd question: Both orders which I mentioned, and which I am referring to as azure, are C&M of this unconfirmed type with shorter arms. One is a Grand necklace so probably it's not the badge whose image Great Dane has kindly provided. Perhaps it was sold at another auction or did not appear as a photograph in there? I believe 1978 was very productive for Klenau.

[Graf]

Hi Here is a picture of Lot 53 and the result of this Auction to support the Great Dane information

One of the seller, who is selling the Catalog I listed above, was very kind to send me them

If this Set is not in this Cataalog The seller stated it does not feature on the back cover of the catalog, then ith might be on the back cover of a book/catalog written by Graf Clenau about Orders from Europe, which was published in 1978/1979- -picture provided

Hi Ilieff, do you have any access to the King Simeon Office. They might have information what was ordered Set or a cross. The might have the answer of this question

I still support the 922F statement " Gustav Tammann had a 1940's C & M small collar with a much later thin arm badge that he said was Cejalvo work.  He  had a new star with that collar, most likely a 1960's Rothe.

 I suspect that some of the Cejalvo Crosses were married to late Rothe Stars like in this picture The cross on the right is typical Cejalvo with the SS Brothers not painted directly to the center

 

 

 

 

[922F]

Here are several 1982-'87  Klenau origin images of C & M insignia.  These do not include all C & M pieces offered by Klenau during those years but include most variants.   Another sale in those years included a first type [fish scale] star, possibly with a badge & sash.

We see 3 different 'emission' badges but only one small collar type.  Enlarging these images lies beyond my ability; they seem to be of print dot matrix rotogravure type.

The large collar in the last image is different from usual design as well.  I observed this collar in person.  Note that flame details are cruder, the elements are larger and [though you cannot see in this image]  no details are engraved on the element reverses..

Another question--when did the star body design change from fish-scale to dot?  Ribbentrop's star is a fish-scale but mid-1930 photos show dot type in use.
 

1^st image—Collar & Badge [+ 3 GC sets] back cover 20 Nov ’87  

Lot 1488 {Small collar with cross of this order.  Badge silver-gilt enamel 67 X 60 mm on the Collar.  This has overall length of 53 cm  Start 4800 DM}

 

2^nd image--Collar & Badge +  GC set back cover 19 Nov ’82  

Lot 62 {Small collar with cross of this order.  Badge silver-gilt enamel 90 X 85 mm on the Collar.  This has overall length of 53 cm  Start 7000 DM}

Lot 63 {Complete set of this order.  Badge silver-gilt enamel 80 X 75 mm on the sash.  With Star of this order silver-gilt enamel 78 X 78 mm with pin.  Reverse with Order jeweler mark.  A fine old set of 1920. Start 5000 DM}

3^rd image—Page 28, Klenau’s European Order Catalog, 1978 cover illustrated above.

Large Collar & Badge +  GC set