Prussia Ludendorff's medal bar

[filfoster]

I searched this and am surprised it was not done to death before. If I missed it, please direct me to the thread.

Has anyone identified all the medals on Ludendorff's well-photographed medal bar?

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Erich_Ludendorff_1918.jpg

Other than Danile Krause's post last year identifying all his awards in the shorthand notation that I can just barely get through, no one seems to have done this.

Here is Mr. Krause's submission

Ludendorff, Erich GdI 1.OQM Ch GS plmE, RAOGKEX, RAO1EX, RAO3SKr, KO2, HOH2aX, EKGK, VK, DA, HEK1X, AK, BZ1X, BrK2, BMJ1, BMVO, BH, HH, LüH, HT, LKEK, MG2b, MMV1, MStMV1, MStMV2T, OV1XmL, OK1, RK, SH1, SH2a, SA1gStX, GSF2aX, EH1X, CK, SMK, WVK1X, WM1, WM2, WK1X, WK2c, ÖL1K, ÖL2aK, ÖEK1K, ÖFJ2a, ÖM1K, ÖM2K, ÖGrSL, JM3, SS1, TH

His bar looks to be about 17 medals, just 4 behind the Kaiser's famous one. Any takers here?

[Claudio]

Interesting questions, but even more is to know if that very bar survived WW2 and post war.... Maybe it lies still within his family (see also http://studiengruppe.blogspot.ru/2011/12/hanno-von-kemnitz-der-sohn-mathilde.html )

[filfoster]

Anyone know if this bar still exists or has anyone tried to copy it?

As an example of copy medal bars, I am attaching a thumbnail of some that I have made:

The bottom one is the Kaiser's as in my avatar.

[filfoster]

Surely someone knowledgable must know what these are. OK, I will guess

1. EK 2

2. Saxon St. Henry

3. Red Eagle 3rd with crown

4 ?

5.Hessian General Honor Decoration For Bravery (medal and ribbon also look like Centenary Medal)

6. Mecklenburg Schwerin Military Merit Cross

7. Mecklenburg Strelitz Cross for Distinction in War

8. ?

9. Oldenburg Freidrich August Cross

10. Long Service Cross ?

11. Bruswick War Merit Cross

12. Saxe Meiningen Cross for War Merit

13. ?

14. ?

15-17 Hanseatic Crosses

Edited May 6, 2014 by filfoster

[Cartaphilus]

13 and 14 are the War Crosses of both Lippe states.

What about this pic? Big, clear and in color...

[redeagleorder]

Surely someone knowledgable must know what these are. OK, I will guess

1. EK 2

2. Saxon St. Henry

3. Red Eagle 3rd with crown

4 ?

5.Hessian General Honor Decoration For Bravery (medal and ribbon also look like Centenary Medal)

6. Mecklenburg Schwerin Military Merit Cross

7. Mecklenburg Strelitz Cross for Distinction in War

8. ?

9. Oldenburg Freidrich August Cross

10. Long Service Cross ?

11. Bruswick War Merit Cross

12. Saxe Meiningen Cross for War Merit

13. ?

14. ?

15-17 Hanseatic Crosses

4.) Prussian 25 Year Officer Long Service Cross

5.) Centenary Medal

8.) Hesse General Honour Decoration for Bravery

[filfoster]

4.) Prussian 25 Year Officer Long Service Cross

5.) Centenary Medal

8.) Hesse General Honour Decoration for Bravery

Thanks; But then what is #10?

[filfoster]

Is anyone else concerned that this does not follow the pre-war or wartime Prussian (he was Prussian) order of precedence, although, if #2 is the Max Joseph, it approximates the Kaiser's 21-place medal bar in precedence?

The Max Joseph at #2 would not be according to the published orders of precedence but only the Royal Hohenzollern Household Order 3rd with swords would come before the Red Eagle 3rd, but the medal in the photo does not have the HOH shaped cross arms.

The #4. medal could also be a Crown Order and appears to have 'swords'

So, now we have:

1. Ek2

2. Saxon St. Henry (could have been BMMJO but he was gazetted the BMJ1) Better: Max Joseph?

3. Red Eagle 3rd with crown

4. 25 year long service cross Better: Crown Order with swords?

5. Centenary Medal

6. Mecklenburg Schwerin Military Merit Cross

7. Mecklenburg Strelitz Cross for Distinction in War

8. Hesse General Honor Decoration for Bravery

9 Oldenburg Friederich August Cross

10. ?

11. Brunswick War Merit Cross

12.Saxe-Meiningen Cross for Merit in War

13. Lippe-Schaumburg War Merit Cross

14. Lippe-Detmold War Honor Cross

15.Hanseatic Cross Hamburg

16.Hanseatic Cross Bremen

17. Hanseatic Cross Lubeck

Edited May 8, 2014 by filfoster

[filfoster]

#8 and #9 above should be switched, and since no one else has piled on, I will propse to put the Saxon St. Henry right after the Centenary, moving those down to 9 and 10, so now we have:

1. EK 2

2. Max Joseph knight

3. Red Eagle 3rd with swords

4. 25 year Long service

5. Centenary medal

6. Saxon St. Henry

7. Mecklenburg Schwerin Military Merit Cross

8. Mecklenburg Strelitz Cross for Distinction in War

9. Oldenburg Friedrich August Cross

10. Hess General Honor Decoration for Bravery

11. Brunswick War Merit Cross

12. Saxe-Meiningen Cross for Merit in War

13. Lippe-Schaumburg War Merit Cross

14. Lippe-Detmold War Honor Cross

15. Hanseatic Cross Hamburg

16. Hanseatic Cross Bremen

17. Hanseatic Cross Lubeck

Thoughts? Corrections?

Edited May 14, 2014 by filfoster

[filfoster]

A cross can clearly be seen before the Brunswick War Merit Cross. This looks like the Anhalt Friedrich Cross so the line up is now:

1. EK 2

2. Max Joseph knight

3. Red Eagle 3rd with crown and swords

4. 25 year Long service

5. Centenary medal

6. Saxon St. Henry

7. Mecklenburg Schwerin Military Merit Cross

8. Mecklenburg Strelitz Cross for Distinction in War

9. Oldenburg Friedrich August Cross

10. Hess General Honor Decoration for Bravery

11.Anhalt Friedrich Cross

12. Brunswick War Merit Cross

13. Saxe-Meiningen Cross for Merit in War

14. Lippe-Schaumburg War Merit Cross

15. Lippe-Detmold War Honor Cross

16. Hanseatic Cross Hamburg

17. Hanseatic Cross Bremen

18. Hanseatic Cross Lubeck

[Dave Danner]

#2 is not the Bavarian Max Joseph. It is the Prussian Merit Cross for War Aid. Most collectors don't regard it very highly, but that little zinc cross was a Prussian war decoration, so as a result it ranked after the EK2 but ahead of Ludendorff's peacetime RAO3SKr. The precedence is correct for a Prussian. Prussian war decorations first - EK2 and PrVfK (VK in Daniel's list) - followed by his peacetime Prussian decorations - RAO3SKr, DA, Cent. - and then non-Prussian awards.

The order in which non-Prussian German state awards were worn varies from person to person. In both pictured bars of Ludendorff's, he appears to have ranked them by the level of the state - first kingdoms, then grand duchies, then duchies, then principalities, then free cities. Your list appears accurate for these with one exception: the Lippe-Detmold War Merit Cross is before the Schaumburg-Lippe Cross for Loyal Service, not after.

He is not wearing a Bavarian Max Joseph Knight's Cross at all. Rather, in both photos he is wearing the breast star of the Grand Cross of that order.

Regards,

Dave

Edited May 20, 2014 by Dave Danner

[filfoster]

Thank you! I am trying to replicate this medal bar (using replica medals where I can) and this is essential information. I will try to post a picture of it when completed. I have all the medals except the Saxe-Meiningen Cross for Merit in War.

The Merit Cross for War Aid is a surprise, since it is a comparatively insignificant medal. I have a photo of Hindenburg's medal bar (yes, I copied that one too), and he also included it on his medal bar. Your explanation of the precedence makes perfect sense.

So the order is:

1. EK 2

2. Prussian Merit Cross for War Aid

3. Red Eagle 3rd with crown and swords

4. 25 year Long service

5. Centenary medal

6. Saxon St. Henry

7. Mecklenburg Schwerin Military Merit Cross

8. Mecklenburg Strelitz Cross for Distinction in War

9. Oldenburg Friedrich August Cross

10. Hess General Honor Decoration for Bravery

11.Anhalt Friedrich Cross

12. Brunswick War Merit Cross

13. Saxe-Meiningen Cross for Merit in War

14. Lippe-Detmold War Honor Cross

15. Lippe-Schaumburg War Merit Cross

16. Hanseatic Cross Hamburg

17. Hanseatic Cross Bremen

18. Hanseatic Cross Lubeck

Edited May 21, 2014 by filfoster

[Dave Danner]

One correction: on #3, the RAO3SKr is the Red Eagle 3rd Class with Bow ("mit der Schleife") and Crown; no swords. The bow/Schleife showed that the recipient had previously received the 4th Class of the RAO. The crown was a special distinction, for special merit. Those who received an RAO4 or RAO3 with the Crown continued to wear it on their medal bars even as they moved up the ranks and received higher grades of the order. If you just had the RAO3S without the Crown, you would stop wearing it when you received the RAO2.

And just to show how complicated it got, just as the bow on the RAO3 showed you previously received the RAO4, the oakleaves on the RAO2 showed that you had received the RAO3. A Prussian general with the 2nd Class would almost always have it with oakleaves, since he would have followed the normal progression - RAO4, KO3, RAO3S, KO2, RAO2E, etc. - as he moved up the ranks. An RAO2 without the oakleaves usually means the holder was not a Prussian officer, and had not received the lower classes.

Rank lists usually used a crossed swords icon for awards with swords, or sometime wrote out "m.Schw."; since we don't have swords on our typewriters, we usually use "X" for swords when we abbreviate the awards. So the 3rd Class with Swords and Crown would be RAO3XKr and with Swords, Bow and Crown would be RAO3SXKr. And so on with all the complications of this order.

[filfoster]

So the Red Eagle would have been worn with the yellow and white ribbon, not the Iron Cross style ribbon?

The order now is:

1. EK 2

2. Prussian Merit Cross for War Aid

3. Red Eagle 3rd with crown and bow on the ribbon

4. 25 year Long service

5. Centenary medal

6. Saxon St. Henry

7. Mecklenburg Schwerin Military Merit Cross

8. Mecklenburg Strelitz Cross for Distinction in War

9. Oldenburg Friedrich August Cross

10. Hess General Honor Decoration for Bravery

11.Anhalt Friedrich Cross

12. Brunswick War Merit Cross

13. Saxe-Meiningen Cross for Merit in War

14. Lippe-Detmold War Honor Cross

15. Lippe-Schaumburg War Merit Cross

16. Hanseatic Cross Hamburg

17. Hanseatic Cross Bremen

18. Hanseatic Cross Lubeck

[Dave Danner]

Yes. German sources often call this the stature ribbon., White with orange stripes.

[filfoster]

Is there a device on the knot of the Red Eagle ribbon bow?

[VtwinVince]

The Schleife is held in place by a gilded loop attached to a pronged device which is attached to the medal bar back plate.

[filfoster]

I have completed my copy of this bar and will try to post a picture soon.

[filfoster]

Here is my Ludendorff bar below a Hindenburg (I did not make that one). The ribbons for the Oldenburg Freidrich August cross and the Anhalt Friedrich cross were switched but have now been corrected. I will see if I can get a photo of the corrected one to post.

[filfoster]

Corrected the ribbons. Yes, the bow is a Russian style but I'm tired of working on this for now.

[Paul R]

Where do you all find all of these loose medal pendents? I am looking for some for a project I am working on and cannot seem to find them.

[filfoster]

Where do you all find all of these loose medal pendents? I am looking for some for a project I am working on and cannot seem to find them.

I found most on the German site Militaria-Agent, run by Ralf Ganzel. His supply is hit-or-miss and he does not 're-stock' often.

There is also another German site, Ordensmanufaktur, that I don't have the complete URL for, that can build medal and ribbon bars and has some individual medals. The Australian site, Quarterdeck also has them, but even though Gary is a good guy, the delivery is spotty to the USA.

[Solomon]

Hi gents,

something is still missing...even on the pictures :-)

He also got the honor cross for heroic deeds Lippe-Detmold, I had the original receipt in my hands during one of my visits at the archive in Detmold.

Of course, it was a "complimentary" award, like the one for Wilhelm II. etc., maybe never worn.

Best regards

Roman

[filfoster]

It would be great to have an even better photo of Ludendorff wearing the medal bar. Even though the photo above is good and can be enlarged to a pretty high resolution, it's not in color and the detail is still not good enough to conclusively indentify everything. Does anyone have anything better? The medal Solomon mentions would be a likely one to have been worn, as it was on the Kaiser's, next to the Lippe Schaumburg medal.

[Zack]

Hi there

I'm totally new to this forum and was wondering if anyone can point me in the direction to get color photos of these Ludendorff medals including their ribbons?

Cheers

Zack