Imperial German Medal Bar - Opinions Please

[eurorders]

Hi, I am a new member of the gmic and have been an enthusiastic Euro medals and orders collector for 17 years (when I am not collecting coins). Question: Is this an accurate guess about this medal bar or can it be made more specific or corrected? I know some of this is slight conjecture...thanks  This was awarded to a Prussian commissioned officer, probably holding the rank of major or oberstleutnant (lieutenant colonel).  This officer presumedly was retired from service sometime during the Weimar period. The presence of the Kyffhauserbund Medal and the Ehrenlegion medal confirm that this bar is of the Weimar period. It is pre-1934 as there is no Hindenburg Cross on the bar. The retired officer was around 60 years old by the mid 1930s.

[Dave Danner]

Hi and welcome to the forum. 

Assuming the medal bar has not been tampered with, and the correct medals are there (with clips, obviously, medals can be switched out), the bar most likely fits field-grade officer (Major/Oberstleutnant/Oberst) who was retired during the war. 

The Crown Order 3rd Class with Swords (KO3X) was not a common award. Before World War I, it might have been awarded for China or colonial service to a senior field-grade officer, but in that case there would be a campaign medal (China, Southwest Africa or Colonial) on the bar.  

During World War I, the Order of the Red Eagle and the Crown Order were not commonly awarded in the lower grades, since the Iron Cross filled the role these orders did in the colonial wars. However, there were a number of awards, mostly to officers forced to retire or placed zur Disposition for various reasons. If these officers already had a Red Eagle 4th Class, the next decoration in the normal peacetime progression was the Crown Order 3rd Class. Since these officers had been at the front, in their case it was awarded with swords on the black-white ribbon. Other officers who retired during the war, but who had served in the Heimat, such as Wehrbezirk officers, might receive the order on the normal blue ribbon.

As noted, there weren't many awards during the war. In the Militär-Wochenblatt, there were 51 KO3Xs gazetted (also 1 award of swords to a prewar KO3).  The small number makes sense, since few officers retired during the war, since there was, of course, a war on.  Those that did were usually forced to retire due to invalidity, in which case if they had enough service a decoration was appropriate, or due to incompetence, in which case no decoration was appropriate.

Do you have a better picture of the medal bar? What is after the Ehrenlegion Medal?

[dedehansen]

Hi,

I would like to know, if the KO 3 X ist silver gilded?

Regards
Andreas

[eurorders]

First of all, thank you. To answer the more recent question, that order with the swords is gold (appearance, proper weight, W hallmark). I am enclosing a better picture of the medal bar and also the one above it. Please also comment, all of you on the one above it. This is what I was told of the medal bar above it. That one likely was awarded to a Bavarian commissioned officer who was most likely a lieutenant during WWI. He was out of the military after WWI but then recalled to active duty circa 1939 for service in WWII. He was probably promoted to Hauptmann (captain) at the time he was recalled to active service.

[Dave Danner]

Hi again,

Yes that is reasonably likely scenario for the bar with the Bavarian order. However, there were plenty of awards of the Bavarian Military Merit Order with Swords to non-Bavarians and to Bavarians in the navy. So while it was most likely a Bavarian lieutenant, it could also have been a Prussian lieutenant in a unit like Infanterie-Regiment König Ludwig III. von Bayern (2. Niederschlesisches) Nr. 47. 

For the Wehrmacht Dienstauszeichung, the 4th Class here required at least four years' service. The next grade required at least 12 years' service. There was no double counting of wartime service, as with Prussian long service awards.  The Wehrmacht Dienstauszeichung was first awarded on 2 October 1936 and awards were made until WW2 broke out in September 1939. So we know he was active between those dates, but cannot say for certain when he returned to active duty.

The typical case was a wartime volunteer in 1914, commissioned as a Leutnant (der Reserve) during the war and released from service when the Imperial Army was drawn down between 1918 and 1920. As the Reichswehr/Wehrmacht was expanded beginning in 1934, many of these former officers were recalled, often as supplementary officers (Ergänzungsoffiziere). The typical former Leutnant was recalled as a Hauptmann (E).  Since they usually only had 4-5 years of service in the Imperial Army, and less than 5 years' service in the Wehrmacht (1934/5-1939), they did not reach the 12-year threshold for the Wehrmacht Dienstauszeichung 3.Klasse. During the war, they might have advanced as far as Oberst.

There were of course, exceptions, but this is a typical case. Many E-officers were only active in service on the homefront, so they may have only received a Kriegsverdienstkreuz 2.Klasse mit Schwertern during the war.  They also may not have had an opportunity during the war to wear a full medal bar, so never bothered to upgrade the medal bar with any wartime awards. 

[ixhs]

I think on Pos.2 there would be a HOH Ritter X more plausibel.?

[Dave Danner]

Under normal circumstances, I would agree. The KO3X is, as I noted, rather uncommon. And as I also noted, with a clip-on medal bar, medals can be easily removed. However, all four clips for the first four decorations are at the same height. If second place was for an HOH3X, the clip should be higher to account for the crown. It's not 100% either way, but the KO3X does fit.

Also, the overwhelming majority of RAO4/HOH3X/DA recipients are known to have at least one Landesorden from another state besides Prussia.  And that is even with all of the missing rolls, including those of several larger states such as Hamburg and Hessen. So, while the number of KO3X awards is small, so too is the number of known RAO4/HOH3X/DA combinations without a non-Prussian decoration.

[Komtur]

Here is the same combination, where wie only find a Ehrenkreuz für Frontkämpfer instead the both inofficial decorations in the end.

 

Edited October 11, 2017 by Komtur

[eurorders]

Here are five medal bars and some related items I acquired lately.  

[spolei]

the three decorations in the circle are awards from a shootingclub.
The cross from a prussian veterans-association has a wrong ribbon ( see arrow)

Edited December 16, 2017 by spolei

[dond]

These bars deserve their own thread.

[eurorders]

A german medal bar for which I traded last week. Here is what a friend who studied them surmised about its potential background. 

"My impression is that the recipient was a mid-level functionary on the Saxon royal household staff. The Ernestine House Order was probably a retirement (or very long service) award. The knight's grade would tell me that he was a senior NCO/warrant officer.  He obviously saw some active duty early in WWI, perhaps on the personal staff of a Saxon royal. The "merit medal" grade awards support this theory.  From the wedding medal to the Turkish medal, I see support of royal/diplomatic visits.  Even the Austrian merit cross is on the peacetime ribbon, so probably related to a trip to Austria by his boss (or from the Austrian kaiser to Saxony).

 It looks like he started in the early 1900s. The wedding medal was for 1905, so he was probably on the royal staff for that.  The latest medal is the Hindenburg Cross (1934), so he still alive then. Interesting that he did not acquire the Austrian, Hungarian or Bulgarian WWI commemorative medals, although he may have felt that this group was impressive enough.

 I don't know enough about German Court and State Handbooks to know who is listed and if awards such as these show up, but that would be the next step of inquiry to see if it's possible to attach a name to the bar.  A great group, with a very unusual combination of awards."

Here is what I think them to be....

1 iron cross 1914

2 Saxe Coburg Gotha Saxe Ernestine house order merit medal with 1914 and swords 

3 Hind. Cross 

4 Saxe Ernestine House order cross, knight

5 wedding medal Duke Carl Edward 

6 Prussian order of the crown medal 

7   9-year medal 

8 Bulgarian Ferdinand medal for merit with crown and flying pendilla 

9 Bulgarian Ferdinand silver medal 

10 Austria merit cross with crown, enameled 

11 Sweden Gustav V silver medal 

12 Turkish medal for merit, silver 

[dedehansen]

Hi,

I love this bar. 

Are there engravings on the Swedish and Turkish medals?

Due to the presence from 2 + 9 we are talking from Unteroffizier as his military rank.

Maybe you could try this for research

http://zs.thulb.uni-jena.de/rsc/viewer/jportal_derivate_00186013/Staatshandbuch_Film_Nr_17_0382.tif

Kind regards

Andreas

[Komtur]

It should be a person in service for the Duchy Saxe-Coburg and Gotha because of position 2, 4 and 5 of the bar. Additionaly there is a tight connection to Bulgaria via Zar Ferdinand from the catholic tribe of this family. Therefore the linked Court and State book from the Grandduchy Saxe (-Weimar) in post 13 will not be of much use. Unfortunately there seem to be no later Court and State book of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha then 1907. I am afraid that the person we are looking for got most of his decorations after 1907, so we will have no luck with this source.

He was a NCO for some years, but after this he must be in a higher civil rank, may be in personel connection with the ducal family of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha. They gave their familiy order as well after 1918 till the early 1930-ies. May be he got the knight 2nd class of the house order in that time.

Edited February 4, 2018 by Komtur

[dedehansen]

49 minutes ago, Komtur said:

Unfortunately there seem to be no later Court and State book of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha then 1907.

Hi,

so try this one.

http://zs.thulb.uni-jena.de/receive/jportal_jpvolume_00265493

Regards

Andreas

[Komtur]

14 minutes ago, dedehansen said:

Hi,

so try this one.

http://zs.thulb.uni-jena.de/receive/jportal_jpvolume_00265493

Regards

Andreas

Yes, that´s the one I own and had a cursory glance on it just now looking out for a supect person. But without luck and I am afraid, that he most of his decorations got later than 1907. But you are perfectly right, that is the only source we can use until now for that case.

[922F]

Eurorders, Sincere congratulations on these marvelous pieces, especially the SCG bar!!

Seem to recall that your SCG bar may have been in the Seymour collection  --  if anyone has the relevant Thies auction catalogs, might be worth a look there to verify.  Seymour certainly owned similar bars originally belonging to SCG government, household and court functionaries including quite impressive chauffeur, mid-level & superior ministry secretary, steward, and adjutant groups.  Regrettably  those catalogs do not usually contain recipient information.

[eurorders]

Thank you all together. This helps my own understanding. I have been trading my coin collection for orders of decoration from Europe lately. I started studying European coins 40 years ago, but European orders only since 18 years ago. So there is some degree of learning curve. David, MidSouth US. 

[eurorders]

These are a couple of cases of interesting medal bars belonging to a friend I swap medals and orders and coins with. 

[Herman]

Holy smokes, are those all real? Nice bars If they are. 

[laurentius]

Dear Herman

For as far as I can see there are atleast 2 fake bars, and some more bars of which I am not entirely sure.

Kind regards, Laurentius

[dedehansen]

7 minutes ago, laurentius said:

Dear Herman

For as far as I can see there are atleast 2 fake bars, and some more bars of which I am not entirely sure.

Kind regards, Laurentius

Hi,

I agree with Laurentius.

I have at least doubts with the bar Militärverdienstkreuz from picture 1 and

from picture 2 I do not like the bar middle right.

Kind regards
Andreas

Edited February 18, 2018 by dedehansen

[eurorders]

I welcome such remarks, pro and con. They are my friend's medal bars and we all admit one can be fooled when buying things, including me...

 

PS, I am trying to learn more, too, by googling old photos of officers wearing medal bars 1880s til 1930 period, the point of time of interest to me. Also, my specialty, if one could call it that, is PAN European kingdom enameled orders of decoration.  So I am kind of a generalist and have broad interests across that wide spectrum.  That is a tall order of learning, but it also keeps me from hyper specializing. That said, which of the medal bars in his two cases IS authentic and MOST valuable and also, what are its value brackets? Thanks. I trade with this person and swap items.

[ixhs]

The marked bars are looking strange.

What i especially like is the bar on #2 on the left with the ottoman ones.

If he would sell it in future, i would be interested in

[eurorders]

Then I am glad I did not trade for those two earlier. All: What in $USD is the medal bar containing the order of the red eagle worth? It is the same one with the Frans Josef, silesian eagle, and hanseatic cross in the same bar. I assume it is genuine?