11-Placer Bavarian Ribbon Bar - ID?

[Nicolas7507]

Hello,

what do you think about this ribbon bar? Could it be IDable?

I think the third ribbon could be BMV4XmKr and the fourth ribbon a BMV4X.

The sixth ribbon looks like the Swedish Order of Swords to me. The silver swords and the different blue stripes rule out an Austrian Order of the Iron Crown. 

The ninth ribbon could be a pre-war BMV4.

 

Best regards,

Nicolas

[1812 Overture]

I feel like new and old, mixed with authenticity

[Paul C]

Possibly Major a.D. Johann Pöllmann who had the Swedish Order od Swords 3rd class, Bayern Jubilee, and Ludwig.

[Nicolas7507]

13 minutes ago, Paul C said:

Possibly Major a.D. Johann Pöllmann who had the Swedish Order od Swords 3rd class, Bayern Jubilee, and Ludwig.

Thank you so much Paul! Do you have anymore information about him?

 

[P.F.]

Any record of Pöllmann having the Bavarian Military Merit Order without Swords (pre-war)? It's not listed in the 1914 Rank List.

[Paul C]

In 1900 and 03 he was at the artillery depot in Fürth. His swords and crown were from WWI, October 9, 1916.

Edited August 27, 2018 by Paul C

[Nicolas7507]

Thank you! Do you know the units where he served during WW1?

Edited August 28, 2018 by Nicolas7507

[Paul C]

He is not listed in the Ehrenrangliste so I can't determine.

[P.F.]

On ‎27‎/‎08‎/‎2018 at 18:04, Paul C said:

In 1900 and 03 he was at the artillery depot in Fürth. His swords and crown were from WWI, October 9, 1916.

I am referring to the 9th ribbon (without swords). I would expect this to be listed in the 1914 Bavarian Rank List, and it is not.

[Paul C]

17 hours ago, P.F. said:

I am referring to the 9th ribbon (without swords). I would expect this to be listed in the 1914 Bavarian Rank List, and it is not.

what is the ribbon

[laurentius]

Dear Paul C

The 9th ribbon is the Bavarian MVO4 without swords, which was only given out untill 1914. If you didn't have it in 1914, you would never be able to get it anymore due to the dissolvation of the Bavarian kingdom. That is the reason it has to appear in the 1914 ranklist.

Kind regards, Laurentius

[Paul C]

Pöllman did not have it in 1914 so possibly the wrong guy.

[laurentius]

Dear fellow collectors

Could it be that this bar belonged to someone who was a mere NCO/EM during the war? perhaps a BMVK2xkr and BMVK2x with a pre-war BMVK3? The Austrian war ribbon was for both NCO/EM and officers awards, the swedish order of the sword might be a version for NCO/EM also. This would explain why we can't find him in the rank lists

Kind regards, Laurentius

[Paul C]

Possibly.

[Nicolas7507]

I would like to bring this old thread to the top again, as I still believe there is a chance for an ID.

Furthermore, I am still unsure which exact classes of the BMVO/BMVK are represented on this bar?

In addition to that the sixth ribbon looks like the Swedish Order of the Sword to me.

Best regards,
Nicolas

Edited October 6, 2019 by Nicolas7507

[dond]

On 28/08/2018 at 14:14, P.F. said:

I am referring to the 9th ribbon (without swords). I would expect this to be listed in the 1914 Bavarian Rank List, and it is not.

Could this ribbon not be the ribbon for the Jubilaumsmedaille an das 10 I.R. Konig, 1932?

[spolei]

I see here rather the ribbon for the order of the Iron Crown Austria, not for the swedish order. As a noncombattant award should the swedish order on the last position. The crown swords edition on the Austrian bravery ribbon disturbs me. The Order of Military Merit had an oak leaves wreath on the field clasp, Signum Laudis had swords, the medals for bravery also had no crown as a support. Finding out a name becomes difficult.

Edited October 7, 2019 by spolei

[Nicolas7507]

Gentlemen, 

Thank you very much for your replies! 

Don, thanks for the suggestion. This medal is definitely a possibility. Ribbon and the placement on the bar look very promising. 

Spolei, thank you! Indeed, you are right. The Order of the Iron Crown makes more sense. About the device on the austrian ribbon: I do not have seen this crown device on that kind of ribbon before. The explanation of FAR32 makes sense to me. Maybe the award I attached as a photo is the one in question? 

 

All the Best, 

Nicolas

[spolei]

2 hours ago, FAR 32 said:

Hello,

I would like to correct the above observation regarding the Austrian war ribbon, or Bravery Medal Ribbon as it is better known among Austrians.  There is much confusion about Austrian devices for this ribbon, but a staff member at Dorotheum clarified things for me. 

It is true that both NCO/EM's and officers wore this ribbon, but only officers' ribbons had crossed-swords devices. Such crossed-swords devices on a ribbon bar could represent the Military Merit Cross with War Decoration 3rd Class or the Signum Laudis or the Franz Josef Order Knights Cross. (Sometimes a golden wreath device was used to represent the Military Merit Cross 3rd Class with War Decoration when available, but these wreaths were not always available, so swords were used instead.)

A device with both a gold crown and gold crossed-swords represents the Gold Merit Cross with Crown with a crossed-swords-device on the Bravery Medal Ribbon (Goldenes Verdienstkreuz mit der Krone am Tapferkeits-Band mit Schwertern am Band.)

The presence of this device alone on the Austrian ribbon tells me that the bar's owner was an officer.  That means the silver devices on the Bavarian ribbons represent the MVO4X with and without crown, respectively.    

  Thanks for the detailed explanation about the Austrian ribbons. Unfortunately, you can not find the class of the MVO over the color of the swords. These may also be third classes of the MVO. From what rank was the Iron Crown awarded?

[Daniel Krause]

To clear some things up here...

We can NOT rely on the device of the Austrian bravery ribbon here. Swords and crown make no sense on a German bar. As well it does not fit to have silver swords on that mystern yellow ribbon. An Austrian Iron Crown should have a green laurel leave to show the war decoration, no silver swords....which would be halfway correct for a Swedish Sword knight 2nd class.

Austrian awards to Germans were only with war decoration, NEVER with swords. The swords devices were Austrian only. If there are swords devices on german bars, it was "self-awarded" non regular devices.

The Austrian merit cross in gold was awarded to people below Officer rank. Paymasters, senior NCOs and that kind of Officials.

The basic decoration for a German Officer wss the Military Merit Cross, followed by an Iron Crown or in rare cases a Leopold. Franz Josefs were usually awarded to Doctors and Officials, only in rare cases to normal Officers.

Will check my sources and see if I can come out with some suspects.

 

Best,

Daniel

[Nicolas7507]

Thank you very much for the clarifications and for checking your sources, Daniel.

In this case the Austrian Merit Cross can be ruled out, I guess.

Regarding the Iron Crown, I just don't know, what else this ribbon could be...

I don't really have a bad feeling with this bar, though.

Best,

Nicolas

[laurentius]

Dear FAR32,

I fear you have a few things mixed up. The Order of the Iron Crown 2nd class was worn on the neck, therefore it was not present on the ribbonbar. Secondly, there are hundreds of pictures, documents and ribbonbars that show the Order of the Iron Crown third class being worn with a laurel wreath on the ribbon bar. This afternoon I will post some pictures of German officers with the Order of the Iron Crown third class with a laurel wreath on their ribbonbar.

Kind regards, Laurentius

[Daniel Krause]

Dear FAR 32,

what would be my concept to show an Austrian Golden Merit Cross with crown and swords  and Bravery ribbon on a ribbon bar? To be able to do that would really make me a Wizard, since even the Austrians that time did NOT have a concept for that.

Iron, Silver and Gold Merit Cross, with or without crown, both signum Laudis, Military Merit Cross and Franz Joseph knight; if awarded to Austrians with swords on the Bravery ribbon would have the very same ribbon bar; the generic Bravery ribbon with crossed golden swords. That fancy miniature decorations and special devices were non-regulatory fashion things by the taste of the wearer. It could be worn, or it could not. There are plenty of Austrian bars around with 3, 4, 5 bravery ribbons next to each other and you can only guess, what a single ribbon would represent.

The Iron Crown device you are refering, a crown with a wreath was indeed a Kleindekoration, showing a higher class either on the triangular ribbon or the ribbon bar.

like this: https://www.dorotheum.com/en/l/3272702/

An Iron Crown 3rd class with war decoration was represented by a green wreath alone on the ribbon bar.

"Hardly any" 2nd classes to Germans is relative. I have 59 2nd classes with war dec. to Prussians in my files, 6 to Württembergians, 5 to Bavarians, 4 to Saxons, 74 in all.

3rd Classes - 284 to Prussians, 37 to Bavarians, 12 to Saxons, 9 to Württembergians.

Again, all awards from Austria to Germany were made with War Decoration only, never with swords. If there are swords shown on a German ribbon bar at Austrian ribbons, it was a period mistake by the wearer or outfitter. The War Decoration was usually shown by a wreath.

By the way, if you meet Georg next time at the Dorotheum, tell him my best greetings.

 

Best,

Daniel

[laurentius]

Dear FAR32,

here is a picture of the correct 'Auflage' for the Order of the Iron Crown 3rd class

I believe this picture is from Rick Lundstrom. Sadly, most of these pictures can't be viewed anymore. I will also add this picture of a ribbonbar with swords. This is incorrect, since only the Austrians received swords. However, it is not uncommon to find Austro-Hungarian awards on German medal- and ribbonbars with added swords, crowns or a mixture of the two.

To revisit the topic of Nicholas' ribbonbar. I believe the mystery-award with swords to be the Swedish Order of the Sword. This was an uncommon, but not rare award with German pre-war officers. 

5 hours ago, Daniel Krause said:

"Hardly any" 2nd classes to Germans is relative. I have 59 2nd classes with war dec. to Prussians in my files, 6 to Württembergians, 5 to Bavarians, 4 to Saxons, 74 in all.

3rd Classes - 284 to Prussians, 37 to Bavarians, 12 to Saxons, 9 to Württembergians.

 

Daniel, would you also have the numbers (ballpark) of the number of awarded MVK's to German officers?

Kind regards, Laurentius

[Daniel Krause]

Hi Laurentius,

yes sure. As far as I have it:

 

1st Class:

41 to Germans (all together)

plus 2 with Brilliants

 

2nd class:

342 to Prussians (fairly complete)

36 to Bavarians (incomplete)

24 to Württemberg (incomplete)

10 to Saxons (incomplete)

 

3rd classes:

10.124 to Prussians (fairly complete)

656 to Bavaria (incomplete)

383 to Württemberg (incomplete)

135 to Saxony (incomplete)

 

Best,

Daniel