Several Knopfloch Spangen

[drspeck]

Hi all,

I picked up some buttonhole spanges lately. Two of these came from Zeige. Please see the pictures

I've got some questions concerning these:

- The top one; is that a life saving medal from Wurttemberg?
- Bottom left: the two Mecklenburg ribbons, what do they represent? I reckon one will be the MVK but
what about the other?
- Bottom right: the first ribbon, Johanniter order?

Any thoughts? I'll post some of the ribbon bars of the Zeige lot at a later date...

All feedback appreciated

Thanks. Peter

[VtwinVince]

Those are cool. I think you have a double Mecklenburg MVK combo, Schwerin and Strelitz. I agree that the black ribbon is a Johanniter, that is a really interesting combo on that one.

[drspeck]

On ‎23‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 06:09, VtwinVince said:

Those are cool. I think you have a double Mecklenburg MVK combo, Schwerin and Strelitz. I agree that the black ribbon is a Johanniter, that is a really interesting combo on that one.

Thanks, that explains the double Mecklenburg ribbons. It looks like the accompanying ribbon bar was sold by Zeige at an earlier date. Does anybody know where it is? Would be nice to reunite the 2 pieces...

 

Edited December 24, 2018 by drspeck

[ccj]

What type officer would have those awards represented by the ribbon bar? I ask because of ribbon number two.

[laurentius]

Dear ccj

The second award is the prussian rote-kreuzmedaille, given to medical troops. If I were to take a gander at trying to guess the owner I would say a Prussian medical officer in a mecklenburgian regiment serving at the balkan. Maybe navy, due to the hanseatic cross, but I think it's army. Could also be a Mecklenburgian serving in a prussian regiment in the balkans.

Kind regards, laurentius

[GreyC]

Hi Laurentius,

this is not meant as a rhetorical question burt a sincere one. I wonder how often the Prussian Red Cross Medal was awarded to Prussian military officers /soldiers with combatant status, as the statut of the medal states that the medal was intended to be awarded from 1898 on to those who, in peacetime or war, had great merit in the service of sick and ailing people and for special services rendered in the service as members of the Red Cross.That, for me, points primarily to the members of the Freiwillige Krankenpflege and Freiwillige Kriegskrankenpflege (non-combatants) and not to military staff of the Prussian forces (be they medical doctors or not). There were of course also medical doctors in the service of the Red Cross and the ribbon above seems to point to a combatant, or does it?

Do (any of) you have photos of Stabsärzte or the like awarded with that medal?

Cheers,

PS: This photo shows a "Kolonnenführer" of the Freiwillige (Kriegs)krankenpflege with the medal in question. Does not, of course, proof my point, just a nice example, I think.

 

Edited December 27, 2018 by GreyC

[ccj]

It’s a very interesting ribbon bar and I’d like to learn more about its medical connection. I too would think a medical Doctor

[laurentius]

Dear GreyC

You mention an interesting point, it is in my opinion true that only a small part of the rote kreuz-medailles were given to medical personell with the status of combattant. I fully support the notion that this  award was also given to members of the freiwillige krankenpflege. In my previous post I was trying to explain the award in it's role on the ribbonbar, which in my opinions belongs to a medical officer, with other awards (Bulgarian and Austrian) which someone who served as freiwillige krankenpflege would most likely not receive.

Another interesting point you mention is whether the owner of the ribbonbar is a combattant, or not. This reminds me of Rick Lundstrom, who already studied this, if I'm not mistaken. Medical staff who worked on the front would be awarded a normal EK, whilst doctors behind the lines were often given non-com EK's. Officers chained to a desk in Berlin could, despite working hundreds of miles behind the frontlines get an combattant EK, rather than a Non-combattant EK. Looking at the other awards on the ribbonbar (both mecklenburgian awards are combattant, same goes for the austrian MVK and the bulgarian order of bravery) I would dare to say that the recipient of these awards was indeed a combattant, who served some medical roll, which is supported by the prussian rote kreuz-medaille, and the turkish red cross medal with oakleaves (Ottoman Hilal-i Ahmer Madalyasi).

Kind regards, Laurentius

[GreyC]

Hi Laurentius,

thank you for your in-depth answer. I totally agree with you on the bar in question and its presumptive owner.

It must have belonged either to a medical doctor of the Prussian forces that actually worked in a field-hospital or the like or some medical doctor in an Army-HQ or Divisional-HQ on the South-Eastern front. I have a special interest in the Freiwillige (Kriegs)krankenpflege of which the German Landesverbände of the Red Cross constituted the largest part. But there were also the Johanniter and Malteser and also a Jewish organisation (if I remember correctly) that belonged to this non-combatant organisation. I remember reading about the EK discussion you mentioned with great interest. I have only few photos with recipients of the non-combatant EK.

I have attached two fairly rare photos from my collection.

a) An officer of the Johanniter (German St. John´s) as member of the Freiwillige Kriegskrankenpflege

b) a group of Freiwillige Kriegskrankenpfleger, one from the Red Cross, the rest Johanniter. Note the ribbon of the Red Cross guy (the platoon-leader / Zugführer in the middle): to me a combatant EKII for a non-combatant. In comparison the ribbons of the fellows from the Johanniter (left Gruppenführer). Clearly different but not a non-combatant EKII to me. Any ideas?

GreyC

 

Edited December 28, 2018 by GreyC

[dedehansen]

14 hours ago, GreyC said:

Hi Laurentius,

this is not meant as a rhetorical question burt a sincere one. I wonder how often the Prussian Red Cross Medal was awarded to Prussian military officers /soldiers with combatant status, as the statut of the medal states that the medal was intended to be awarded from 1898 on to those who, in peacetime or war, had great merit in the service of sick and ailing people and for special services rendered in the service as members of the Red Cross.That, for me, points primarily to the members of the Freiwillige Krankenpflege and Freiwillige Kriegskrankenpflege (non-combatants) and not to military staff of the Prussian forces (be they medical doctors or not). There were of course also medical doctors in the service of the Red Cross and the ribbon above seems to point to a combatant, or does it?

Do (any of) you have photos of Stabsärzte or the like awarded with that medal?

Cheers,

PS: This photo shows a "Kolonnenführer" of the Freiwillige (Kriegs)krankenpflege with the medal in question. Does not, of course, proof my point, just a nice example, I think.

 

Hi,

do you know the name from this guy?

Kind regards
Andreas

[GreyC]

Hi Andreas,

unfortunately not, nor any other information.

GreyC

[dedehansen]

27 minutes ago, GreyC said:

Hi Andreas,

unfortunately not, nor any other information.

GreyC

Thanks for the quick response, and here is the reason why I asked. 

Regards
Andreas

[ixhs]

This bar was definitely worn by a medic or doc because of the last decoration (ottoman red crescent medal with oaks) It fits with IC on combatant ribbon and TWM for combatants/ bulgarian MMO X

Sometimes you can find pieces with oaks on a Feldspange.

To find one on a regular medal bar is nearly unpossible. I have only seen a handful bar in the last years.

I have one of the bronce grades.

 

The Knopflochschleife with Johanniter was worn by a 1870/71 veteran. I think a person which served in the Freiwillige Krankenpflege or it was an official. No war fighter.

I think you cannot ID your button holes.

The RKM3 or 2 (red cross medal) was also worn by officials, nurses (on a Damenschleife) or some kind of other persons (for money donations)

Do (any of) you have photos of Stabsärzte or the like awarded with that medal?

Yes, i do.  (WW1) Stabsarzt Dr. Rosenthal or for example OSA. Dr. Ullrich

 

 

Edited December 28, 2018 by ixhs

[ccj]

4 hours ago, dedehansen said:

Thanks for the quick response, and here is the reason why I asked. 

Regards
Andreas

That’s so amazing. I wonder how often this combo of awards existed

[GreyC]

Hi Andreas,

great to see these medals on a bar as "real" pieces. What is the first one called, please? Looks like the Saxon Ehrenkreuz für freiwillige Krankenpflege im Frieden? The one that I know has a red circle instead of blue, though. Is the blue one the one for wartime?

Hi ixhs,

thank you for your comments and your photo. We see Dr Rosenthal in a uniform of a doctor of the Red Cross. So he might have gotten the Red Cross medal  for a service rendered for the Red Cross. You probably will neer know what they got it for, unless stated in the certificate for the medal.

Best,

GreyC

 

Edited December 28, 2018 by GreyC

[Komtur]

On 27/12/2018 at 22:59, GreyC said:

... Do (any of) you have photos of Stabsärzte or the like awarded with that medal? ...

Two example with portrait and bar of active medical officers with a Red Cross Medal:

Generalarzt Dr. Hugo Hoenow

Generaloberstabsarzt Dr. Martin Merkel

Edited December 29, 2018 by Komtur

[laurentius]

Dear Komtur

Lovely groupings, I especially like that Schaumburg-Lippe Offiziersehrenkreuz. Very nice.

Kind regards, Laurentius

[ixhs]

[redeagleorder]

17 hours ago, GreyC said:

Looks like the Saxon Ehrenkreuz für freiwillige Krankenpflege im Frieden? The one that I know has a red circle instead of blue, though. Is the blue one the one for wartime?

 

 

Hello GreyC,

The award you are referring to, founded in 1912, was indeed awarded only during the brief period between its founding and the outbreak of  the Great War, and is consequently very rare. Once war broke out, the enamel on the front was changed to blue in colour, and the enamel on the back depicting a red cross on a white background removed. In the place of the latter were put a couple of dates, the first always 1914 and the second any one of 1915, 1916, 1917 or 1918. The ribbon was also changed to the version shown in the above photograph and medal bar. The award was renamed a couple of times during the war, finally ending up as the 'Ehrenkreuz für freiwillige Wohlfahrtspflege im Kriege'. An excellent website explaining these changes and providing examples was sachsens-orden.de, however it no longer seems to be available.

 

With regards to the Mecklenburg knopfloch and related ribbon bar, one of the Mecklenburg ribbons may represent the award of the Mecklenburg-Schwerin Friedrich Franz Alexandra Kreuz, awarded on this ribbon during the  Great War for medical services rendered. Although award numbers were low, it would certainly be in keeping with the medical theme of the rest of the ribbon bar.

Edited December 29, 2018 by redeagleorder

[GreyC]

Hi,

thank you for the cool photo/medal display combos by Komtur, the additional photo w medal bar from ixhs and the interesting infos w regard to the Saxon and Mecklenburg medals

Have a splendid New Year!

GreyC

[drspeck]

Hi all. Thanks for taking the trouble and time. Lot's off new information for me. WW1 is still a new collecting area for me
and I appreciate all the information.

 

Seeing all those nice medal bars, I might be tempted to go into those myself

Thanks. Peter

Edited December 29, 2018 by drspeck

[ccj]

11 hours ago, Komtur said:

Two example with portrait and bar of active medical officers with a Red Cross Medal:

Generalarzt Dr. Hugo Hoenow

Generaloberstabsarzt Dr. Martin Merkel

Superb, I love those groups.

 

ive been searching for a medical doctors group for years...

 

 

[dedehansen]

On 28/12/2018 at 21:50, GreyC said:

Hi Andreas,

great to see these medals on a bar as "real" pieces. What is the first one called, please? Looks like the Saxon Ehrenkreuz für freiwillige Krankenpflege im Frieden? The one that I know has a red circle instead of blue, though. Is the blue one the one for wartime?

Best,

GreyC

 

Hi GreyC,

it is the Ehrenkreuz für freiwillige Krankenpfege im Kriege with year figures 1914 / 1915.

Would you please be so kind to provide a detail scan from the medal bar, I think your guy

is the the former owner from my medal bar.

Kind regards
Andreas

[GreyC]

Hi Andreas,

this is as good as it gets (with regard to scan). I don´t have the original photo handy, but I was wrong with respect to the reverse which isn´t blank. His initials are H.S. he had a sister who lived in Spandau and relatives in Obergötzental. Can´t decipher from where he had written from. The photo is from 1921. I also attach the part with the city. Someting ending with ....stadt.

Best,

GreyC

[drspeck]

Hi. I'm reading it as something as [J.Gosdt, d[em] 9.11.21, uber dem Os[..]im sollt...]. Would you be so kind as to post the entire text from the back? Maybe more letters can be deducted from the rest.

Peter