Militär-St.-Heinrichs-Orden grand cross around neck

[Utgardloki]

In this photograph Friedrich August III. is wearing what seems to be a grand cross badge around his neck. Was this just some sort of fashion done by him or was this legitimated through the statutes?

[P.F.]

Here is Hermann Goring in 1933 wearing the Grand Cross of the Ernestine House Order at the neck, below his Pour le Mérite. It could just have been his personal choice on the night, but another example, nonetheless.

Kind regards,
Pierce

Also, like Friedrich August, Goring is wearing more than one Grand Cross. He is also wearing the Italian Order of SS. Maurice and Lazarus with the Grand Cross hanging on the sash, as permitted.

[VtwinVince]

The Saxon kings wore a 'Sonderstufe' of the order, or special class. I think Goering got his SEHO by strong-arming the old Duke in the 1930's.

[VtwinVince]

My books are in storage right now, but I'm sure I read about a St. Heinrich Sonderstufe somewhere.

[jaba1914]

This cros worn by the King is still exisiting.

Kind regards

Alex

[Haku]

This book " Die Orden des Königreiches Sachsen "speaks of the special Grandmaster's Cross.
Unfortunately, this cross has disappeared today.

It differs from other grand crosses by the balls on the cross arms.

 

Kind regards

haku

Edited October 2, 2019 by Haku

[jaba1914]

It is in Dresden in public hand.

kind regards

Alex

[Utgardloki]

Thank You all for your interesting posts!

I found this picture of the so called "Großmeisterkreuz" (grand masters cross) :

It is tagged: "Großmeisterkreuz des Militär-St. Heinrich-Ordens. Metall. Dresden: Militärhistorisches Museum der Bundeswehr in Dresden" (Grand masters cross of the Military Order of St. Henry. metal. Dresden: military historic museum of the Bundeswehr in Dresden)

Edited October 2, 2019 by Utgardloki

[Utgardloki]

 

I am going to roughly translate this for the non german speakers:

The grand masters cross:

One - unfortunately today missing (would be interesting if someone could clarify this) - single-item is the grand masters cross, which separates itself from the other grand crosses through the ball shaped ends on the cross arms. This cross, that cause of the crown-form clearly is from the creating period, was given after the death of the former grand master to its successor.

We know different photographs of king Friedrich August III. with this from him around the neck worn cross.

In a writing of the war ministry to the orders chancellery fro the 14th October 1914 is in connection  with the provision of the grand cross for the king written:

"To the orders chancellery will be send out of the stocks of the order-collection the to H.M. the highly blessed king Albert awarded grand cross of Military Order of St. Henry. H.M. the king Friedrich August III. should occasionally (on) his travel into the field, from the highest-ranking general, be asked to wear the order." 

Exactly one week later, on the 21th October 1914, king Friedrich August III was asked in the field from the highest-ranking officer, at this time general von Kirchbach, in the name of the army, to lay on the grand cross of the Military Order of St. Henry. The king got through that the first grand cross bearer of the 1st world war.

We assume that, that this cross not necessarily is identical to the grand masters cross, that the king already held ex officio when taking over the reign.

[Haku]

7 hours ago, Utgardloki said:

One - unfortunately today missing (would be interesting if someone could clarify this) - single-item is the grand masters cross

This is a black and white photo before 1945, not current.
To my knowledge, the cross is lost unknown as described in the book .

[jaba1914]

Like a mentioned before the cross is currently stored in Dresden. 

 

[Haku]

@ Jaba1914, I did not know that.

It has apparently never been shown in exhibitions.

Good to know.

 

[jaba1914]

Her a more recent picture of the cross.

[Trooper_D]

Interesting that Jaba1914's is not the exact same cross as shown in the black and white photo posted by Utgardloki. 

Edited October 3, 2019 by Trooper_D

[Komtur]

On 30/09/2019 at 19:43, Utgardloki said:

In this photograph Friedrich August III. is wearing what seems to be a grand cross badge around his neck. Was this just some sort of fashion done by him or was this legitimated through the statutes? ...

This was indeed an interesting diskussion about the special cross the Saxon king is wearing on this portrait.

But I am quite sure, the answer for the initial question is another one.

For officers in some types of the uniform (e.g. field uniforms) it was not allowed or unusual, to wear a sash with it. Therefore for Generals from the rank of Generaloberst upward or royalty in military uniforms of that kind there was no possibility, to wear something around the neck. Undoubtedly because of this painful situation for this group of people it was officially allowed according to the Offiziersbekleidungsvorschrift, to wear grand crosses or 1st classes around the neck. Usualy the last awarded decoration was elected for wearing that way.

Here are some examples:

GdK Freiherr von Bissing: Crown Order 1st class with swords on the ring

GdI Ludendorff: Red Eagle Order 1st class with swords

GdI von Plettenberg: Crown Order 1st class

Generalarzt der Armee von Schjerning: Crown Order 1st class

 

Edited October 3, 2019 by Komtur

[Utgardloki]

Thanks that perfectly answered my question!

That's a very interesting topic, I have till know never recognized this, although I know some of the photographs You brought up as examples. Seems like this also was possible with the old uniform regarding the Plettenberg picture (does anyone know when this was taken? During Gorlice Tarnow before he received the PlM? Or did they just reuse an old picture of him for these postcards?)

[Komtur]

9 minutes ago, Utgardloki said:

... Seems like this also was possible with the old uniform regarding the Plettenberg picture (does anyone know when this was taken? During Gorlice Tarnow before he received the PlM? Or did they just reuse an old picture of him for these postcards?)

With no WWI decoration at all, it must be a prewar picture of Plettenberg.

Edited October 3, 2019 by Komtur

[Paris]

Hier mal schön zu sehen, das hessische GK Philippsorden  um den Hals Großherzog Ernst Ludwig und vom Prinz Wilhelm von Hessen.

Die Tragevorschriften vom Philippsorden wurde 1849 Abgeändert.

Diejenigen GK, welche zugleich GK Unseren Ludwigsorden sind, tragen das Ordenskreuz an einem schmäleren Band um den Hals, ohne Stern.  Bei Feierlichkeiten aber an dem großen Band unter dem Rock, und dazu den Stern unter dem Ludwigsorden.

 

Gruß  Paris

 

[Utgardloki]

Sehr interessant, also ähnlich wie beim Schwarzen Adlerorden und dem Roten Adlerorden, gabs das noch bei anderen Kombinationen?

Very interesting, so similar to the Black Eagle, Red Eagle Order, does this also exist with other combinations (other German states or also at non German order systems)?

[Great Dane]

From my area of collecting:

Recipients of the Danish Order of the Elephant who were also awarded the GC of the Danish Order of Dannebrog were required to wear the latter around the neck (on a neck ribbon).

I would assume they would also wear the Dannebrog GC Star to distinguish it from a Commander 2nd class decoration - at least after the insignias of the GC and Commander became identical.

Since the sash of the Elephant Order is worn from left shoulder to right hip and the Dannebrog from right shoulder to left hip, it also makes sense not to tempt some recipient with a lack of style sense to wear both sashes at the same time. Not many were awarded both decorations, but it only takes one to make it look ridiculous... ?

[Stogieman]

I love a good St. Henry topic!

[Utgardloki]

Is Kaiser Franz Josef in this photograph wearing a red eagle grandcross badge around his neck?

[Komtur]

1 hour ago, Utgardloki said:

Is Kaiser Franz Josef in this photograph wearing a red eagle grandcross badge around his neck? ...

This portrait is very interesting indeed. Emperor Franz Joseph I. seems to wear to his uniform of a Prussian general only his Prussian Orders. These are the Black Eagle and the Royal Housorder Großkomtur. With the Order of the Black Eagle was since 1810 always going the 1st class of the Red Eagle Order and after creation of the Grand Cross in 1861 this highest class of the Red Eagle Order. These had to be worn for a knight of the Black Eagle Order always as neck decorations. Even if this picture was defenitely made after 1861, the Austrian emperor is there wearing his in 1844 awarded Black Eagle Order sash, star and the to this decoration belonging 1st class of the Red Eagle Order around the neck.

[Utgardloki]

Ah sure... it's the first class not grand cross... I haven't thought about that, interesting that he (or his staff) didn't update

 

Another one: (tagged with 1889)

And another one I found from a different perspective:

(Empfangskommitee für Kaiser Franz Joseph I. von Österreich, König von Ungarn: Kaiser Wilhelm II., König von Preußen mit Gefolge vor geschmücktem Eingang in Berlin, 12.08.1889, Bild 1 [Quelle: Hauptstaatsarchiv Stuttgart])

And another one:

(Nach Parade auf Tempelhofer Feld: Kaiser Wilhelm II., Kaiserin Auguste Viktoria (im Damensattel) mit Kaiser Franz Joseph I. von Österreich, letzterer in Ulanenuniform, begleitet von Dame und Offizieren durch Berlin reitend, am Strassenrand Zivilbevölkerg.)

 

[Utgardloki]

Another interesting St.-Henry piece is the chain or collar to the grand cross that was made for Albert in honor of his 50-years army jubilee

Here's a picture of a model:

King Albert wearing the chain:

 

Does anyone know where the chain is now - or if it was lost?