Friedrich_Franz_IV Mecklenburg-Strelitz unidentified

[Alex K]

Hi all, another medal identification request, anyone recognise the indicated medals, all help appreciated as usual

 

regards

 

Alex K

Edited January 16, 2020 by Alex K
additional info same medals, different shot

[1812 Overture]

It feels a bit like this. Memorial medal for Mecklenburg's wedding with the Netherlands?

[Alex K]

6 hours ago, 1812 Overture said:

It feels a bit like this. Memorial medal for Mecklenburg's wedding with the Netherlands?

Excellent, I think you are correct, well spotted, thanks, interesting it comes in two sizes by the look of it

Regards

Edited January 18, 2020 by Alex K

[David M]

Left is the marriage medal 

Right the enthronisationmedal of Queen Wilhelmina with her mother as Regent

[Alex K]

Hi David thanks for the clarification, error on my part due to it being partly covered

 

Regards

[GdC26]

And re the heading: Friedrich Franz IV was of course grandduke of Mecklenburg-Schwerin, not of Mecklenburg-Strelitz (at least at the time of the pic, he was not - he ruled Mecklenburg-Strelitz only from February to November 1918, following the suicide of Adolf Friedrich IV). 

Kind regards, 

Sandro

Edited January 18, 2020 by GdC26

[Alex K]

Thanks for the additional info, Meck-schwerin/strelitz confuses me sometimes,.! 

[1812 Overture]

12 hours ago, GdC26 said:

And re the heading: Friedrich Franz IV was of course grandduke of Mecklenburg-Schwerin, not of Mecklenburg-Strelitz (at least at the time of the pic, he was not - he ruled Mecklenburg-Strelitz only from February to November 1918, following the suicide of Adolf Friedrich IV). 

Kind regards, 

Sandro

I wonder why he committed suicide?

[GreyC]

15 hours ago, GdC26 said:

ollowing the suicide of Adolf Friedrich IV

He didn´t commit suicide. It was Adolf Friedrich VI.

He was said to suffer from depression, ultimately the cause was never established, though.

GreyC

[GdC26]

8 minutes ago, GreyC said:

He didn´t commit suicide. It was Adolf Friedrich VI.

He was said to suffer from depression, ultimately the cause was never established, though.

GreyC

Thanks for the correction on the number. So it must be murder then? The cause was established by the coronary, who described his findings, but just did not draw any final  conclusions (which was not unusual in such circumstances involving royalty): he was found with a gunshot wound, and drowned. The prevailing view is he committed suicide. 

"Am 24. Februar nachmittags fand man dann die Leiche des Großherzoges mit einer Schussverletzung in der Brust im Kammerkanal bei Neustrelitz. Die Schusswaffe konnte trotz intensiver Suche nie gefunden werden. Als Todeszeitpunkt wird im Obduktionsbefund der Abend des 23. Februar 1918 angenommen, als Todesursache wurde „Ertrinken“ festgestellt, in der Annahme, dass der Schuss nicht sofort tödlich war. Im Obduktionsbefund des Amtsarztes Dr. Wilda heißt es, er sei „getroffen, vornüber ins Wasser gefallen und ertrunken“. (...) Aus seinem Umfeld wurde von depressiver Stimmung des Großherzoges berichtet, so auch später in den Memoiren der Daisy von Pless. "

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Friedrich_VI._(Mecklenburg)

Kind regards, 

Sandro

[91-old-inf-reg]

Hello, the first medal that you’re trying to ID is the Preußen Hannoversche Jubiläumsdenkmünze.

[GdC26]

1 hour ago, 91-old-inf-reg said:

Hello, the first medal that you’re trying to ID is the Preußen Hannoversche Jubiläumsdenkmünze.

Looks like a correct identification to me, well spotted.

kind regards,

Sandro

[laurentius]

5 hours ago, 91-old-inf-reg said:

Hello, the first medal that you’re trying to ID is the Preußen Hannoversche Jubiläumsdenkmünze.

I disagree, unless he is wearing a smaller version of the Jubiläumsdenkmünze it doesn't fit. I would also be inclined to wonder why a prince from Mecklenburg got a medal meant for former Hannoverian troops, when Mecklenburg served on the opposite side during the war.

In my opinion this is the German red cross medal.

Kind regards, Laurentius

[GdC26]

On 31/05/2020 at 11:55, laurentius said:

I disagree, unless he is wearing a smaller version of the Jubiläumsdenkmünze it doesn't fit. I would also be inclined to wonder why a prince from Mecklenburg got a medal meant for former Hannoverian troops, when Mecklenburg served on the opposite side during the war.

In my opinion this is the German red cross medal.

Kind regards, Laurentius

Thanks Laurentius. Your comments prompted me to check the pic again, and I think you're right that this is not the Jubiläumsdenkmünze. But I also don't think this is hte Prussian Red Cross medal - wrong postion on hte bar, and too low for the archduke (without enamel, we're talking third class here). 

Studying hte pic again I seemed to notice the medal at hand is oval. Since given its prominent place on hte bar, this is likely a Mecklenburg Schwerin award, I was wondering if  nr. 2 could be the Goldene Militär Verdienstmedaille 1813/14? I could not find a pic of a gold one, but here is a link to the silver version: https://www.ehrenzeichen-orden.de/deutsche-staaten/silberne-militar-verdienstmedaille-fur-1813-1815.html 

Kind regards,

Sandro

Edited June 2, 2020 by GdC26

[laurentius]

54 minutes ago, GdC26 said:

Studying hte pic again I seemed to notice the medal at hand is oval. Since given its prominent place on hte bar, this is likely a Mecklenburg Schwerin award, I was wondering if  nr. 2 could be the Goldene Militär Verdienstmedaille 1813/14? I could not find a pic of a gold one, but here is a link to the silver version: https://www.ehrenzeichen-orden.de/deutsche-staaten/silberne-militar-verdienstmedaille-fur-1813-1815.html 

I don't think it was this one either, since Friedrich Franz wasn't alive during the Napoleonic wars. I'm still fairly confident in my choice, the Prussian Red Cross decoration.

[GdC26]

33 minutes ago, laurentius said:

I don't think it was this one either, since Friedrich Franz wasn't alive during the Napoleonic wars. I'm still fairly confident in my choice, the Prussian Red Cross decoration.

I don't think so. Wrong place on the bar, there is no Geneva cross visible, and 2nd and 3rd class are way too low for a grand duke. And the decoration is clearly oval in shape, not round - see the pic from my collection below, taken from a different angle.

I would need to check, but it seems well possible that the Grand duke was entitled to wear this medal in gold not as a recipient, but as the head of state of the Grand duchy and/or as nominal chief of its army.  

A further pic, now from the web. The medal clearly is oval in shape, although the obverse seems a bit different from that of the Verdienstmedaille. Clearly not a Red Cross medal, in any event. I'll get out the books as time permits and will see what I can find.

Edited June 2, 2020 by GdC26

[GdC26]

It could be the Kriegervereinsmedaille 1899, which was instituted in 1899 to commemorate the battle of Loigny-Poupry of 2 December 1870 by the then regent of Mecklenburg Schwerin, Johann Anton, who was managing the affairs of the Duchy until Friedrich Franz came of age. https://www.ehrenzeichen-orden.de/deutsche-staaten/kriegervereinsmedaille-1899.html

Design is the same as the 1813/14 award, but the year is different. According to Wiki, Franz Fedrinand in fact wore it. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Francis_IV,_Grand_Duke_of_Mecklenburg-Schwerin  https://www.ehrenzeichen-orden.de/deutsche-staaten/kriegervereinsmedaille-1899.html

[91-old-inf-reg]

9 hours ago, GdC26 said:

It could be the Kriegervereinsmedaille 1899, which was instituted in 1899 to commemorate the battle of Loigny-Poupry of 2 December 1870 by the then regent of Mecklenburg Schwerin, Johann Anton, who was managing the affairs of the Duchy until Friedrich Franz came of age. https://www.ehrenzeichen-orden.de/deutsche-staaten/kriegervereinsmedaille-1899.html

Design is the same as the 1813/14 award, but the year is different. According to Wiki, Franz Fedrinand in fact wore it. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Francis_IV,_Grand_Duke_of_Mecklenburg-Schwerin  https://www.ehrenzeichen-orden.de/deutsche-staaten/kriegervereinsmedaille-1899.html

That looks very likely, however I bring up a similar question that I was asked pertaining upon how he would have been eligible for the award as he did not participate, nor was he alive for the war of 1870 .

[GdC26]

35 minutes ago, 91-old-inf-reg said:

That looks very likely, however I bring up a similar question that I was asked pertaining upon how he would have been eligible for the award as he did not participate, nor was he alive for the war of 1870 .

And I give the same answer I gave above, with two additions:

 1 -  it seems well possible that the Grand duke was entitled to wear this medal  not as a recipient, but as the head of state of the Grand duchy and/or as nominal chief of its army.  

 2 - the troops at Loigny-Poupry were commanded by Friedrich Franz II, Friedrich Franz IV's grandfather; and

3 - the medal was instituted by Johann Anton, who served as regent after Friedrich Franz III's death until Friedrich Franz IV came of age.

In other words, I would not be surprised if family ties and Friedrich Franz IV's position as archduke (as he was in 1899, even if due to his age, he did not yet reign the archduchy) led to the bestowal. Nothing unusual in royal circles, Wilhelm II wore many awards he presumably did not technically qualify for (GC EK 1914, PLM with oaks, etc.); Leopold IV Prinz of Lippe Detmold wore a special class of his house order, etc. And the 1870/71 war still held a lot of importance at the end of the 19th and the beginning of the 20th century, as it laid the basis for German unification under Wilhelm I.

And then there is of course the possibility that  FF IV was in fact the patron of hte Kriegerverein to which the medal was connected. Be that as it may, all of this makes much more sense than a lowly Prussian RK medal holding second place on the medlbar of the Grandduke of Mecklenburg-Schwerin. 

Kind regards, 

Sandro

Edited June 2, 2020 by GdC26

[91-old-inf-reg]

10 hours ago, GdC26 said:

And I give the same answer I gave above, with two additions:

 1 -  it seems well possible that the Grand duke was entitled to wear this medal  not as a recipient, but as the head of state of the Grand duchy and/or as nominal chief of its army.  

 2 - the troops at Loigny-Poupry were commanded by Friedrich Franz II, Friedrich Franz IV's grandfather; and

3 - the medal was instituted by Johann Anton, who served as regent after Friedrich Franz III's death until Friedrich Franz IV came of age.

In other words, I would not be surprised if family ties and Friedrich Franz IV's position as archduke (as he was in 1899, even if due to his age, he did not yet reign the archduchy) led to the bestowal. Nothing unusual in royal circles, Wilhelm II wore many awards he presumably did not technically qualify for (GC EK 1914, PLM with oaks, etc.); Leopold IV Prinz of Lippe Detmold wore a special class of his house order, etc. And the 1870/71 war still held a lot of importance at the end of the 19th and the beginning of the 20th century, as it laid the basis for German unification under Wilhelm I.

And then there is of course the possibility that  FF IV was in fact the patron of hte Kriegerverein to which the medal was connected. Be that as it may, all of this makes much more sense than a lowly Prussian RK medal holding second place on the medlbar of the Grandduke of Mecklenburg-Schwerin. 

Kind regards, 

Sandro

Sandro, I do tend to agree with you, and bringing up Wilhelm ii, I had come across another thread on this website and it’s mentions that he didn’t even wear a non combatants version of the 1870 kreigsdenkmünze, and he was alive when the war was taking place. This is certainly ending up to be a very interesting topic to say the least.