Difference Achselbänder and Achselschnüre?

[Chris Boonzaier]

Hi,

 

does anyone know the difference between the two? I thought the words were interchangeable?

Thanks

Chris

[Chris Boonzaier]

P.S. the reason I ask is ... none of the Uniform books seem to mention them in detail... and we use the expression rather interchangeably...

 

But when it comes to certain Adjutanten the regulations say they must wear the Achselbänder and Achselschnüre on official duty, and off duty they may wear the Achselbänder.....

[Chris Boonzaier]

example...

[Bayern]

Hello Chris ,Achselbande are the two plaited pieces of your pic . Achselschnure the two cords that ended in the metallic pencil like pieces 

[Chris Boonzaier]

Hi, the the problem is... these are all sewn together, so it is not possible only to wear part of it.

[GdC26]

Not sure why this needs to be contentious, we're all gentlemen here:

5 hours ago, Simius Rex said:

Sorry to say this, but even I know this is incorrect, and I'm basically a dummy.  The two cords terminating in tapered metal Hornknoepfe are officially referred to as "zusaetzliche Schnure" but are not known simply by themselves as "Achselschnure" and are non-detachable.  Chris is correct in that Achselschnure and Achselband are used interchangeably but clearly, there is a distinction between the two as evidenced by the references to them in the regulations for adjutants' aiguillettes . Simi.          

If you check: https://books.google.nl/books?id=DMFFAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA312&lpg=PA312&dq=achselschnur+versus+achselband&source=bl&ots=FJZaN9ZCPc&sig=ACfU3U3Y6DwlvET_ceekIqUjwGxF_AuKNg&hl=nl&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjj_8LZ4crpAhXM16QKHQKxCfIQ6AEwA3oECAoQAQ#v=onepage&q=achselschnur versus achselband&f=false 

you will see that even in 1818, it was hard to make a real distinction in terms of purpose, and that the distinction was made by reference to origin and construction instead.

Achselbände apparently originated from a shoulder band or cord that originally held belt and saber hangers in place. In 1818, they were used to denote rank and/or unit.

Achselschnure are defined by reference to their "Spitzen" (the metal pencil like contraptions at the end of the cords), originally used to clean the ignition holes of muskets. In 1818, according to the encyclopedia the link refers to, they just served ornamental purposes ("heurzutage dienen Achselschnüre our noch zur Zierde....").

As noted by others in this thread, the distinction made in the definition in the 1818 encyclopedia seems to have blurred over time. 

I think Simi is referring to the WWII distinction between the two pics shown below, with the first pic showing a WH Fangschnur for adjutants (which indeed denoted function, not rank), the second and third an officers parade aguiliette (gold for general officers, silver for officers, and thus somewhat indicative of rank).

Problem with that thesis is that I'm not sure a similar distinction existed in the armies of imperial German states. At least the page of Das Deutsche Heer copied below does not show a similar difference in construction between the Fangschnuren for Generäle, Generalajutanten and/or Flügeldjutanten. But I'll run though my pics as time permits to see if I can find evidence of a similar distinction being made in WWI. 

I think member Filfoster in a separate link pointed to (perceived) differences in braiding and construction between Flügeladjutant aguilettes on the one hand, and General(adjutant)s on the otherNot sure why this needs to be contentious, we're all gentlemen here: 

 

The pics of Flügeladjutanten in that thread do not confirm the type of difference in construction of aguilettes that Simi rightly pointed out, existed in WWII. 

And to add further to the confusion: adjutants in the German armies of WWI occasionally wore sashes to denote function, even after August 1914.

To be conintued.

Kind regards, 

Sandro

Edited May 24, 2020 by GdC26

[GdC26]

I've gone through my pics, but have not found any evidence of a simplified Fangschnur in wear by adjutanten in the period up to 1918. Adjutanten appear to have worn either silver braided aguilettes or sashes. Some assorted pre-war and wartime pics shown below. I'll check one more source, and then will see with interest what others say

.

Edited May 24, 2020 by GdC26

[GdC26]

Chris, 

Here is your answer for Bavaria, I believe (which I think is what you actually were looking for).

On a quick reading, in essence, as of 1873, Achselbänder (which included the Generalsgeflecht denoting rank) only existed for officers of general rank, Achselschnure for adjutants of any rank (with colors denoting differences in rank and station).  

With the abolishment of the general's parade dress in 1910, Achselbänder, although not abolished, practicallyally became redundant (as a practical matter, the Generalsgeflecht could not be worn with epualettes) as generals switched to wearing Achselschnüre.

As an aside I noted that adjutant cords should have closed crown tips, Flügeladjutanten and princely adjutants open crowned tips.

Hope this helps, 

Sandro

Edited May 24, 2020 by GdC26

[Chris Boonzaier]

Hi,

 

thanks! That is really useful... One correction though... from the 1904 Bavarian Bekleidungs Vorschrift... it says the Flügeladjutanten and Kronprinz Adjutanten wear the same "Achselbänder und Achselschnüre" as a General a La Suite seiner Majestät... who in turn are listed as having them as "nicht durchbrochenen Kronen"

[GdC26]

Hmmm, not so sure how that matches up with: https://www.hermann-historica.de/de/auctions/lot/id/5921 and https://www.hermann-historica.de/de/auctions/lot/id/5921

Looks like something that may have not been too strictly adhered to or enforced (if in fact it was not abolished post 1904, like the paraderock for generals)

[Chris Boonzaier]

15 minutes ago, GdC26 said:

Hmmm, not so sure how that matches up with: https://www.hermann-historica.de/de/auctions/lot/id/5921 and https://www.hermann-historica.de/de/auctions/lot/id/5921

Looks like something that may have not been too strictly adhered to or enforced (if in fact it was not abolished post 1904, like the paraderock for generals)

Could it be in relation to his position of Obersthofmeister ? ... Or simply not really being enforced? I read one reference where they said some regulations for Flügeladjutant, Prince Adjutant were largely word of mouth and not fixed in Law, references not wasting space on positions with just a couple of people.

 

I really kick myself in the ass that I did not bid on or oviously get any of the uniform bits in that auction... I now have one of the peaked caps... but wish I had more...

Does the book have a reference for that statement?

What is also interesting... their picture about which parts are for which button... I have not seen a Flügel Adjutant wearing it like in the Diagram with the Schnurr in the bottom Button?

This is the set i picked up...

[GdC26]

45 minutes ago, Chris Boonzaier said:

Could it be in relation to his position of Obersthofmeister ? ... Or simply not really being enforced? I read one reference where they said some regulations for Flügeladjutant, Prince Adjutant were largely word of mouth and not fixed in Law, references not wasting space on positions with just a couple of people.

 

I really kick myself in the ass that I did not bid on or oviously get any of the uniform bits in that auction... I now have one of the peaked caps... but wish I had more...

Does the book have a reference for that statement?

What is also interesting... their picture about which parts are for which button... I have not seen a Flügel Adjutant wearing it like in the Diagram with the Schnurr in the bottom Button?

This is the set i picked up...

Beautiful set. The book does not address the issue, except that it identifies an open crowned Achselschnur as one for a Flügeladjutant (and the authors presumably had reason to so identify it). The identifiction seems to be borne out by the Leonrod examples, both of which have open crowns.I think it is fair to assume that in this case, like in so many others, there was theory .... and then there was praxis.

[Chris Boonzaier]

5 minutes ago, GdC26 said:

Beautiful set. The book does not address the issue, except that it identifies an open crowned Achselschnur as one for a Flügeladjutant (and the authors presumably had reason to so identify it). The identifiction seems to be borne out by the Leonrod examples, both of which have open crowns.I think it is fair to assume that in this case, like in so many others, there was theory .... and then there was praxis.

Yeah, I remember we had a uniform change in the army, hard shoulderboards became smaller soft ones and a metal Brevet for Morse operators no longer fit on the board... we were only allowed 3 metal badges on the front of the tunic, so our regt tailor sewed the Metal Brevet on some badge cloth, put hooks on the back, and said "now it is a cloth badge... noone will question it...".... and he was right... everyone assumed it was correct...

[GdC26]

And Ludwig III famously wore his collarpatches the wrong way around, so who was he to comment .....?

Edited May 24, 2020 by GdC26

[Chris Boonzaier]

I am also a bit confused, the pic in the book shows the "einfache Schnurr" being worn at the bottom (4th) button for Flügel Adjt... whereas other people (Generals) are pictured with it in the 2nd button... but in real photos they did not seem to wear it that way?

[Bayern]

14 hours ago, GdC26 said:

Chris, 

Here is your answer for Bavaria, I believe (which I think is what you actually were looking for).

On a quick reading, in essence, as of 1873, Achselbänder (which included the Generalsgeflecht denoting rank) only existed for officers of general rank, Achselschnure for adjutants of any rank (with colors denoting differences in rank and station).  

With the abolishment of the general's parade dress in 1910, Achselbänder, although not abolished, practicallyally became redundant (as a practical matter, the Generalsgeflecht could not be worn with epualettes) as generals switched to wearing Achselschnüre.

As an aside I noted that adjutant cords should have closed crown tips, Flügeladjutanten and princely adjutants open crowned tips.

Hope this helps, 

Sandro

Great contribution ! Many thanks .

Regarding the sash weared over the right shoulder to the left hip it was the distinctive of Regimental Adjutants among others . In the today Chilean Army the Adjutant of the Escuela Militar wear in Parade the sash Prussian Style. The same the Adjutant of the Regimiento Escolta Granaderos . both units with Prussian Parade Uniforms 

[David M]

From which book do these beautiful images come?

[GdC26]

2 hours ago, David M said:

From which book do these beautiful images come?

David, 

DIENST- UND RANGABZEICHEN DER OFFIZIERE UND BEAMTEN der Königlich Bayerischen Armee 1806 bis 1918. W. Seibold / G. M. Schulz. 174 Seiten mit hunderten farbigen Abbildungen, Großformat.

Kind regards, 

Sandro

8 minutes ago, GdC26 said:

David, 

DIENST- UND RANGABZEICHEN DER OFFIZIERE UND BEAMTEN der Königlich Bayerischen Armee 1806 bis 1918. W. Seibold / G. M. Schulz. 174 Seiten mit hunderten farbigen Abbildungen, Großformat.

Kind regards, 

Sandro

A further book in the same series (issued by the Bayerische Armeemuseum in Ingolstadt many moons ago) deals with headgear of the Bavarian army. I have referenced that book in a recent discussion with Claudio on a Bavarian general's pickelhaube. I think if you search a bit you can still find both excellent references for around € 50 each. 

BTW, thankscfor your kind words Bayern.

Kind regards, 

Sandro

 

Edited May 25, 2020 by GdC26

[Bayern]

Sandro ,Servitore !

[filfoster]

On 24/05/2020 at 06:11, GdC26 said:

Chris, 

Here is your answer for Bavaria, I believe (which I think is what you actually were looking for).

On a quick reading, in essence, as of 1873, Achselbänder (which included the Generalsgeflecht denoting rank) only existed for officers of general rank, Achselschnure for adjutants of any rank (with colors denoting differences in rank and station).  

With the abolishment of the general's parade dress in 1910, Achselbänder, although not abolished, practicallyally became redundant (as a practical matter, the Generalsgeflecht could not be worn with epualettes) as generals switched to wearing Achselschnüre.

As an aside I noted that adjutant cords should have closed crown tips, Flügeladjutanten and princely adjutants open crowned tips.

Hope this helps, 

Sandro

What is the book these are from?

[GdC26]

17 hours ago, filfoster said:

What is the book these are from?

Filfoster,

 

See my post of 25 May 2020: 

 

DIENST- UND RANGABZEICHEN DER OFFIZIERE UND BEAMTEN der Königlich Bayerischen Armee 1806 bis 1918. W. Seibold / G. M. Schulz

 

Kind regards,

Sandro

Edited May 24, 2021 by GdC26

[filfoster]

Danke!

[GdC26]

Pleasure.

[ccj]

On 24/05/2020 at 04:43, GdC26 said:

 

.

 

im pretty sure the man on the far right is Castell-Castell.

Edited October 15, 2022 by ccj

[GdC26]

1 hour ago, ccj said:

im pretty sure the man on the far right is Castell-Castell.

As Oberst, wearing this Blue and an earlier version of this ribbon bar?

Yes, that seems possible, well done Charles. 

 

Based on his entry in the Militärhandbuch 1916, the Johanniter BMO officers cross with swords would be correct, too. 

 

Kind regards,

 Sandro

Edited October 15, 2022 by GdC26