Jump to content

Recommended Posts

What do you guys think about this bar?

 

1717B236-CBC5-47AE-8A53-237A4B4F2338.thumb.jpeg.eeaecc4e6054c0fb534531652d5209b1.jpeg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Charles

It seems to be an 1870 ribbon bar to an officer who served after in WW1. It is strange that he is not wearing the Wurttemberg long service ribbon. Why he wears the Prussian REO ther? For me this ribbon should be after the commemorative ribbon of 1870-71.

Do you know the owner of this ribbon bar ?

Christophe

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

So... the Wuerttemberg Silver Merit Cross with Swords, which was instituted in 1915 for senior NCOs, was awarded to a soldier who also received the Wuerttemberg Military Merit Order, the Berthold Order, the Austrian Merit Cross, and the Friedrich Order during the war ??  He was an NCO in 1915 (???) and subsequently promoted to officer when he received these high honors ??? 

 He received the very prestigious Red Eagle Order with Bow on the Ribbon during peacetime, presumably before WW1, which actually occupies the wrong place on the bar as Deruelle already pointed out. 

Frankly, I don't have a very good feeling about this bar. 

You mention this is a bar from a picture of a tunic in a book.  Sometimes uniform collectors have bars made to order because they don't want to spend big money for a prop.  Could this be one of those? Simi. 

 

 

.

Edited by Simius Rex

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The pic is not from a book, it ifs from Helmut Weitze's site: https://www.weitze.net/militaria/60/Wuerttemberg_Feldbluse_M_1910_fuer_einen_Generalmajor__358660.html. As the description mentions, the tunic (including, from memory, the ribbon bar) are featured in Baldwin and Fisher's field grey book, which shows pieces that mostly come out of the well documented, beautiful and very extensive Marshall V. Daut collection. A bit of a coy way to ask a question ....

Sandro 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Simius Rex said:

So... the Wuerttemberg Silver Merit Cross with Swords, which was instituted in 1915 for senior NCOs, was awarded to a soldier who also received the Wuerttemberg Military Merit Order, the Berthold Order, the Franz Josef Order, and the Friedrich Order during the war ??  He was an NCO in 1915 (???) and subsequently promoted to officer when he received these high honors ??? 

 He received the very prestigious Red Eagle Order with Bow on the Ribbon during peacetime, presumably before WW1, which actually occupies the wrong place on the bar as Deruelle already pointed out. 

Frankly, I don't have a very good feeling about this bar. 

You mention this is a bar from a picture of a tunic in a book.  Sometimes uniform collectors have bars made to order because they don't want to spend big money for a prop.  Could this be one of those? Simi. 

 

 

Simi, I hink you're right that the bar may have been made for collector purposes (and think so mostly because of the strange combination of decorations and the order in which they are mounted, an issue also flagged by Christophe) but why the Silver Merit cross with swords?

I "read" the bar as: 

- EK II with 1914 Spange

- WMVO knightscross;

- Württemberg Friedrichsorden, knights cross (presumably 1st class) with swords;

- Orden der Württembergische Krone, knights cross with swords (which I thought came before the WFO);

-  Baden, Orden Berthold des Ersten with Swords (?), which if correctly identified, I would expect to come after the PROA3mS

- PROA3mS, which strikes me as an unusual award for a Württemberg senior officer;

-Osterreich, Goldenes Verdienstkreuz mit Krone (again unusual on a foreign bar - I would expect an FJO or given rank, ÖEK);

-as Christophe noted, commemorative ribbon of 1870-71

- Zentenarmedaille;

_ Chinadenkmünze

- Kolonialdenkmünze

 

Charles, have you asked Helmut for his views of the bar (not exactly the thing of highest value in this particular offering), or for pics of the back?

7 hours ago, Simius Rex said:

.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Holy sh...

Thats definetly a fake.

Completely impossible combination.

 

Best,

Daniel

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Daniel, 

Do you agree with the ID of the combo set out above?  

Best, 

Sandro

Edited by GdC26

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Sandro

A little mistake with the REO. it is with crown and bow not S for swords 🙂

Christophe

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Deruelle said:

Hi Sandro

A little mistake with the REO. it is with crown and bow not S for swords 🙂

Christophe

 

Thanks Christophe, I used the "S" to denote Schleife (and ignored the crown), but forgot that it was used for Schwerter. My bad. 

Cheers, Sandro

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, GdC26 said:

- Orden der Württembergische Krone, knights cross with swords (which I thought came before the WFO);

Hi Sandro,  not that it matters because the bar is not genuine, but the fourth ribbon represents the Wuerttemberg Silver Merit Cross with Swords on account of the thin black stripe in the middle.  In other words, it's not the Order of the Crown.  They should have used silver swords to represent the combattant version of the Silver Merit Cross.

I began my post by mentioning the unlikelihood of this NCO's award (instituted in 1915) being next to 3 officer's awards from Wuerttemberg and the Red Eagle Order.  For me, this one award is what makes absolutely no sense on the bar.  In my opinion, and with a little imagination, you could logically explain the rest of the ribbons by simply assuming the assembler placed the RAO and the Austrian Merit Cross in the wrong position. Cheers, Simi.   

Edited by Simius Rex

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, Simius Rex said:

Hi Sandro,  not that it matters because the bar is not genuine, but the fourth ribbon represents the Wuerttemberg Silver Merit Cross with Swords on account of the thin black stripe in the middle.  In other words, it's not the Order of the Crown.  They should have used silver swords to represent the combattant version of the Silver Merit Cross.

I began my post by mentioning the unlikelihood of this NCO's award (instituted in 1915) being next to 3 officer's awards from Wuerttemberg and the Red Eagle Order.  For me, this one award is what makes absolutely no sense on the bar.  In my opinion, and with a little imagination, you could logically explain the rest of the ribbons by simply assuming the assembler placed the RAO and the Austrian Merit Cross in the wrong position. Cheers, Simi.   

Thanks Simi, I've learned something. Cheers, Sandro

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think we even need to see the reverse of this monstrosity.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Someone's been trying to put as many fancy looking (original) devices on one bar... 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It’s not my bar. As stated, it’s on a tunic listed on Weitze’s site and shown in Baldwin and Fisher’s book. I don’t like the bar and it’s always annoyed me to be honest. I wish it had been removed for the book and it needs to be tossed.

im not sure what to think of the tunic as it appears the shoulders once held sewn in boards but now sport boards that are sewn down. I’m not saying the tunic isn’t a real generals tunic but... I do like the collar tabs

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


  • Blog Comments

    • Thanks for your reply Patrick, just in case some might not know what the Belgian WW1 Medal you were referencing looks like I have included one here. I understand that the small crown on the ribbon denoted the recipient was a volunteer.  
    • Brian, Thanks for initiating this discussion. For me, it’s a combination of the thrill of the chase, the history behind the item, and the aesthetics, although this latter factor may seem a bit strange to some. To illustrate this, the very first thing I collected as a kid in the 1950’s was a Belgian WW1 medal, for service in 1914-18, which is bell shaped, with a very striking profile of a very dignified soldier, wearing an Adrian helmet which bears a laurel wreath. It was the image that
    • Thank you for sharing your story, it was most interesting and greatly appreciated, it makes this blog well worth the time to post. Regards Brian  
    • Hello I started collecting when I found my first Mauser cartridges in a field next to my parents' house next to Armentières. I was eight years old.  Then shrapnel, schrapnell balls, darts... That's how I became a historian. When I was 18, we used to walk through the fields with a metal detector to find our happiness. It was my time in the army as a research-writer in a research centre that made me love the orders of chivalry. I've been collecting them for 24 years now. Christophe
    • Thank you for your most interesting comment. The thrill of the chase didn't interest me in the beginning but over time it started to overshadow the act of simply adding yet another medal or group to the collection. Regards Brian  
×
×
  • Create New...