Roter Adler-Orden of Char. Vizeadmiral Hugo von Schuckmann

[Kriegsmarine Admiral]

I need help regarding his Roter Adler Orden 2. Klasse. On this photo provided by Sandro, we can see he is wearing the RAO2 around the neck, below the Kronen Orden 2. Klasse. The photo was taken sometime between 16 November 1898 (his promotion to Konteradmiral) and 14 December 1901 (his retirement). As far as I'm aware, he's wearing these two decorations wrong. RAO2 should be on the top and KO2 below it.

I'm having trouble confirming the exact Class of the RAO2. I know it's the 2. Klasse for sure. Schuckmann retired on 14 December 1901. I don't have the 1900 or 1901 Kaiserliche Marine Rangliste, so I can't confirm if he was awarded the RAO2, and which Class. In the 1899 Rangliste he still has just the Roter Adler-Orden 3. Klasse mit Schleife und mit der Krone.

The Seeoffiziere Gesamtliste I looked at next seems to have an error. It lists "Pr. Kronen-O. 2. Kl., Stern z." twice, first on 18 January 1901 and second on 09 November 1901 (see the second photo below).

My conclusion is the following: he was indeed awarded the Stern to his KO2 on the first date (18 January 1901).

Regarding the second date (09 November 1901), I think that on this date he was awarded the Stern to his RAO2 mit Eichenlaub. This is where I need help. Can anyone find out if he was awarded the Roter Adler-Orden 2. Klasse mit Eichenlaub before 09 November 1901? If he was, my assumption would be correct. As far as I know, he couldn't have been awarded just the RAO2 (without the Eichenlaub), because the Grand Cross, 1st and 2nd Class could be awarded with Eichenlaub, indicating prior receipt of the next lower class of the order. Since he had the Roter Adler-Orden 3. Klasse mit Schleife und mit der Krone, it's pretty safe to assume his RAO2 (whenever it was awarded) was awarded with the Eichenlaub. And on 09 November 1901 (little more than a month before he was retired) he was then awarded the Stern to his RAO2mE.

Thanks for any help!

[Deutschritter]

He must have gotten the "Stern zum Roten Adlerorden II. Klasse mit Eichenlaub" on 9 November 1901, because in the Rangliste 1901 (nach dem Stande vom 8. Mai 1901) he already has the RAO2mE. The "Gesamtliste" seems to have a mistake there.

Do you happen to have exact birth and death dates? Did he become Vizeadmiral zur Disposition in WWI, I think I read that somewhere. Thanks!

Do you know more about his (older?) brother Oscar?

 

[BlackcowboyBS]

To be honest, I have never heard, that the RAO should be worn on top of the Kronenorden. To my understanding these two were absolutely identicly regarding their status. But as I am not deep into prussian orders I might be wrong. Would be interesting to learn the thoughts of our prussian specialists here. 

[1812 Overture]

Can anyone tell me whether Commander Olaf’s order is a military version? I didn't see the sword

[Kriegsmarine Admiral]

On 24/11/2020 at 00:44, Deutschritter said:

He must have gotten the "Stern zum Roten Adlerorden II. Klasse mit Eichenlaub" on 9 November 1901, because in the Rangliste 1901 (nach dem Stande vom 8. Mai 1901) he already has the RAO2mE. The "Gesamtliste" seems to have a mistake there.

Do you happen to have exact birth and death dates? Did he become Vizeadmiral zur Disposition in WWI, I think I read that somewhere. Thanks!

Do you know more about his (older?) brother Oscar?

 

Thank you very much for confirming that Schuckmann was awarded the RAO2mE!

He was born on 04 January 1848 in Viecheln, Mecklenburg. He died on 07 December 1931 in Berlin-Wilmersdorf.

To my knowledge, he didn't become Vizeadmiral zur Disposition in WWI. Where did you see that information?

If you are referring to Oscar von Schuckmann, he was born in 1851. That would make him his younger brother. But I don't know if they were brothers? How do you know that? Also, what more do you want to know about Oscar?

*EDITED Here is the list of Hugo von Schuckmann's awards:

-Königlich Preußischer Roter Adler-Orden II. Klasse mit Eichenlaub (18. 01. 1900)
-Königlich Preußischer Kronen-Orden II. Klasse mit dem Stern (18. 01. 1901)
-Königlich Preußische Kriegsdenkmünze für die Feldzüge 1870–71 für Kämpfer
-Königlich Preußische Kaiser Wilhelm-Centenarmedaille 1897
-Königlich Preußischer Roter Adler-Orden III. Klasse mit Schleife und mit der Krone
-Königlich Preußischer Roter Adler-Orden IV. Klasse
-Königlich Preußischer Kronen-Orden III. Klasse
-Königlich Preußisches Dienstauszeichnungskreuz
-Königlich Preußische Rettungsmedaille am Bande
-Komturkreuz des Königlich Bayerischen Militärverdienstordens
-Ehrengroßkomturkreuz des Großherzoglich Oldenburgischen Haus- und Verdienstordens des Herzogs Peter Friedrich Ludwig
-Ehrenritterkreuz II. Klasse des Großherzoglich Oldenburgischen Haus- und Verdienstordens des Herzogs Peter Friedrich Ludwig
-Komturkreuz II. Klasse des Herzoglich Sachsen-Ernestinischen Hausordens
-Ritterkreuz des Königlich Italienischen Ordens vom Heiligen Mauritius- und Lazarus
-Kaiserlich Russischer St. Annenorden II. Klasse
-Kaiserlich Russischer St. Stanislaus-Orden I. Klasse
-Kommandeurkreuz II. Klasse des Königlich Norwegischen Ordens des heiligen Olaf
-Kaiserlich Türkischer Medschidié-Orden IV. Klasse
-Offizierskreuz des Tunesischen Nischan-el-Iftikhar-Ordens
-Großkreuz des Königlich Spanischen Ordens für Verdienste zur See

Edited November 25, 2020 by Kriegsmarine Admiral

[Utgardloki]

It looks like the Crown order he's wearing around his neck is wider than the Red Eagle order. Don't the second classes of both orders have the same width?

Could it be he was awarded the 1st class and is wearing it around the neck? That would also explain the precedence.

[Deutschritter]

Thank you, Kriegsmarine Admiral, what great information! Hugo and Oscar are both in the Ranglisten, Hugo as Schuckmann I, Oscar as Schuckmann II, but what is funny, Hugo went to the Marine des Norddeutschen Bundes on 24.5.1965, Oscar already on 9.6.1864 (maybe as Schiffsjunge?), therefore I thought he was older. Hugo, although, was promoted faster, Unterleutnant zur See on 23.11.1869, Oscar on 19.4.1870. Both had the Kriegsdenkmünze für die Feldzüge 1870–71.

As to Hugo being Vizeadmiral zur Disposition (probably before WWI?!), I found that in the "Neues Adels-Portefeuille 1200 bis 1945", Oscar is listed as Konteradmiral zur Disposition. Maybe we can find out, where Oscar was born? If it were also Viecheln we could be pretty sure.

[VtwinVince]

I agree, looks like a KO1, slightly larger than the KO2.

[Deutschritter]

Gentlemen, no KO1 according to "Deutscher Ordens-Almanach" (1904) for Vizeadmiral z. D. Hugo von Schuckmann:

[Kriegsmarine Admiral]

2 hours ago, Deutschritter said:

As to Hugo being Vizeadmiral zur Disposition (probably before WWI?!), I found that in the "Neues Adels-Portefeuille 1200 bis 1945", Oscar is listed as Konteradmiral zur Disposition. Maybe we can find out, where Oscar was born? If it were also Viecheln we could be pretty sure.

I guess this is the website of the "Neues Adels-Portefeuille 1200 bis 1945"? http://home.foni.net/~adelsforschung2/portefeuille08.htm

In this case, zur Disposition doesn't mean they were active after they retired (during WW1 for example). It means "Vizeadmiral zur Disposition" was their last rank and position.

In both their cases zur Disposition means "retired", since they weren't active after that. For example, Hugo von Schuckmann was "zur Disposition gestellt unter Verleihung des Charakters als Vizeadmiral" on 14 December 1901. Yes, zur Disposition meant that he could be used as Offizier z.D. if needed, but in his case, he wasn't used after 14 December 1901.

Regarding Oscar von Schuckmann, he was born on 25 May 1851 in Anklam, Pommern and died on 07 March 1920 in Kiel-Kitzeberg. Since he and Hugo weren't born in the same city, I'm not so sure they were brothers after all.

32 minutes ago, Deutschritter said:

Gentlemen, no KO1 according to "Deutscher Ordens-Almanach" (1904) for Vizeadmiral z. D. Hugo von Schuckmann:

Why is the RAO2mE listed without the Stern here (from 1904) if we agreed he must've received it in 1901?

Edited November 24, 2020 by Kriegsmarine Admiral

[Komtur]

According to the Könglich Preußische Ordenliste 1905 both von Schuckmann got the Red Eagle Order 2nd class with Oak Leaves: Hugo 18.01.1900 and Oskar 18.01.1901. None of both is there listed with the star.

[Deutschritter]

Thank you both, Gentlemen, I love watching how mysteries are slowly but surely solved! This is why I came to this great forum.

[Kriegsmarine Admiral]

I updated Hugo's list of awards (see above). The correct date for his Stern zum KO2 is 18 January 1901. The November date is for Oscar.

Here is the list of Oscar von Schuckmann's awards and a photo:

-Königlich Preußischer Roter Adler-Orden II. Klasse mit Eichenlaub (18. 01. 1901)
-Königlich Preußischer Kronen-Orden II. Klasse mit dem Stern (09. 11. 1901)
-Königlich Preußische Kriegsdenkmünze für die Feldzüge 1870–71 für Kämpfer
-Königlich Preußische Kaiser Wilhelm-Centenarmedaille 1897
-Königlich Preußischer Roter Adler-Orden III. Klasse mit der Schleife
-Königlich Preußischer Roter Adler-Orden IV. Klasse
-Königlich Preußischer Kronen-Orden III. Klasse
-Königlich Preußisches Dienstauszeichnungskreuz
-Kommandeurkreuz II. Klasse des Großherzoglich Badischen Ordens vom Zähringer Löwen
-Ehrengroßkomturkreuz des Großherzoglich Oldenburgischen Haus- und Verdienstordens des Herzogs Peter Friedrich Ludwig
-Ehrenkomturkreuz des Großherzoglich Oldenburgischen Haus- und Verdienstordens des Herzogs Peter Friedrich Ludwig
-Kaiserlich Russischer St. Annenorden II. Klasse mit Brillanten
-Kommandeurkreuz II. Klasse des Königlich Norwegischen Ordens des heiligen Olaf

[BlackcowboyBS]

On 24/11/2020 at 13:36, Utgardloki said:

It looks like the Crown order he's wearing around his neck is wider than the Red Eagle order. Don't the second classes of both orders have the same width?

Could it be he was awarded the 1st class and is wearing it around the neck? That would also explain the precedence.

Hello, we had the same discussion at the SDA Forum, the solution is: the KO is a little bit larger than the ROA, so he wears both decorations as 2nd class. As Komtur said, he wasn't awarded the 1st class of the KO. 

[Utgardloki]

Would be nice to see them side by side, so if someone has a photo...

[Deutschritter]

Thank you, Kriegsmarine Admiral, great work!

[Deutschritter]

Good morning, Kriegsmarine Admiral, I have a question about Hugo's Großkreuz (IV.) des Königlich Spanischen Ordens für Verdienste zur See ... I read in the Deutscher Ordens-Almanach (1908), that it was the SpVzS2, that would make it II. Klasse. A bit low for an Admiral. Could you please tell me, where you read Großkreuz? Thanks!

[Kriegsmarine Admiral]

10 hours ago, Deutschritter said:

Good morning, Kriegsmarine Admiral, I have a question about Hugo's Großkreuz (IV.) des Königlich Spanischen Ordens für Verdienste zur See ... I read in the Deutscher Ordens-Almanach (1908), that it was the SpVzS2, that would make it II. Klasse. A bit low for an Admiral. Could you please tell me, where you read Großkreuz? Thanks!

It says it was the Großkreuz in the Seeoffiziere Gesamtliste.

[Deutschritter]

Thank you, that would fit to his rank!

[BlackcowboyBS]

On 25/11/2020 at 16:30, Utgardloki said:

Would be nice to see them side by side, so if someone has a photo...

 

[Utgardloki]

Well that makes it obvious... Great! Thank you! 

[1812 Overture]

14 hours ago, Utgardloki said:

Well that makes it obvious... Great! Thank you! 

Good morning sir. Is this your collection? it is good! Do I need to know the current price of the commander-level Prussian official order (18K gold)?

[BlackcowboyBS]

On 03/12/2020 at 06:49, 1812 Overture said:

Good morning sir. Is this your collection? it is good! Do I need to know the current price of the commander-level Prussian official order (18K gold)?

No, these pieces don't belong to me! I have taken this photo from the discussion on the SDA Forum, where we had the same topic!