Order of the Crown with No Swords 4th Class but War Ribbon

[LuckySlevin]

Hi, 

Could you please tell me if there is a possibility of a combination of the Order of the Crown with No Swords 4th Class with a War Ribbon, ie the ribbon with large black in the center.

 

Thank you

 

 

[Daniel Krause]

Oh yes. No swords decoration on war ribbon were awarded in low numbers.

Usually to guys in the rear like administration branch.

 

Best, 

Daniel 

[VtwinVince]

If this is the one on fleabay, that ribbon is for a commander's grade and is, I believe, a modern copy.

[chuck]

Please excuse me if this is sill but would not the cross be on  a white and black war ribbon for noncombatants? Which was very infrequently awarded. Their is a very good article (in German) on the topic. Their are very few awards of the Crown Order 4th Class on the white and black ribbon with only 19 in the colonial period and 1 in WW1.

 

Übersicht der Magazine 1999-2012 – Deutsche Gesellschaft für Ordenskunde e.V. (deutsche-gesellschaft-fuer-ordenskunde.de)

 

 

 

v/r

Chuck

[Komtur]

1 hour ago, chuck said:

Please excuse me if this is sill but would not the cross be on  a white and black war ribbon for noncombatants? Which was very infrequently awarded. Their is a very good article (in German) on the topic. Their are very few awards of the Crown Order 4th Class on the white and black ribbon with only 19 in the colonial period and 1 in WW1. ...

These questions are not silly, because the rules for the different ribbons on Prussian decorations are quite sophisticated.

No problem is the normal or official ribbon, e.g. the light blue one for the Order of the Crown.

Then you have the so called war ribbon, black with white stripes on both sides. These were normally handed out with orders with swords. Compared with the normal ribbon, war ribbons are scarce.

Very scarce are, as you´ve mentioned, the white ribbon with black stripes on both sides. These were given out to decorations with and without swords. These combinations got e. g. military officials and military medicals for there merits in war time. More about these, you find in the article, you´ve linked above.

Incredible scarce, but not impossible, are awards of Prussian decorations without swords but on the so called war ribbon. I have currently no numbers, but I am quite sure, Daniel can assist in this question.

Finally it make no sense, to invest in a single prussian order without swords but with a black war ribbon more money, you would pay for both of them separately. Only the combination is scarce, not the single items and you will never know, when they were joined together.

The only possible connection between them, wich would satisfy me, should be on an medalbar. But I collect these for almost 20 years and can´t remember, to have seen an original appearing medalbar with this combination of ribbon and decoration.

 

Regards, Komtur.

Edited January 3, 2021 by Komtur

[chuck]

Dear Komtur, 

This is why i really enjoy this forum. Their are truly professional collects who take the time to answer questions the many questions on these topics. P.S. I had a hunch this was not a very likely combination.

 

Thank You, 

Chuck

[LuckySlevin]

Thank you a lot for your replies!

Really nice forum and professional people!

And yes the question concerned the order from ebay.

 

[Komtur]

Thank you for the kind words!

But to be true, it wasn´t the whole story ?

The rules opened a possibility to award only the single ribbon to a decoration, one still had, if the kind of ribbon was higher ranking in the question of bravery.

This was a rarely used possibility and it seems to me very unlikely, to retrace such a procedure afterwards.

But it was:

Paul Dieckmann got his Crown Order 4th class with swords on the 2nd November 1905 because of his position as a military veterinary surgeon initial on the white ribbon (with black stripes). But his later merits has been so brave, that he got a separate black war ribbon to his order on 7th December 1907.

This medal bar and the fitting miniature chain came without a name. But the combination of orders and medals, especially because of the very scarce Mecklenburg Military Merit Cross on the noncombattant red ribbon for service in the colonies, is suitable only to him:

Edited January 3, 2021 by Komtur

[VtwinVince]

Wow Komtur, that is a super interesting grouping.

[BlackcowboyBS]

wow this must be a rare combination a fighters and a non combatant cross on the same medal bar, I have never seen something like this before. 

[LuckySlevin]

Wow, what a nice bar and interesting story!

[BlackcowboyBS]

On 04/01/2021 at 00:35, Komtur said:

Thank you for the kind words!

But to be true, it wasn´t the whole story ?

The rules opened a possibility to award only the single ribbon to a decoration, one still had, if the kind of ribbon was higher ranking in the question of bravery.

This was a rarely used possibility and it seems to me very unlikely, to retrace such a procedure afterwards.

But it was:

Paul Dieckmann got his Crown Order 4th class with swords on the 2nd November 1905 because of his position as a military veterinary surgeon initial on the white ribbon (with black stripes). But his later merits has been so brave, that he got a separate black war ribbon to his order on 7th December 1907.

This medal bar and the fitting miniature chain came without a name. But the combination of orders and medals, especially because of the very scarce Mecklenburg Military Merit Cross on the noncombattant red ribbon for service in the colonies, is suitable only to him:

Hey Komtur,

could you please tell us more on this very special medal bar? How comes that Doctor Paul Diekmann got the non- and also the combantant version of the Mecklenburg War merit cross? This must be an amazing story or was he awarded the noncombatant cross together with the prussian one and later got the model for active fighter due to his decoration with the fighters ribbon? I love stories and secrets like that! I really envy you for this bar! Congrats on this one. 

Edited January 5, 2021 by BlackcowboyBS

[Komtur]

The story of Dieckmann is told here ?

[chuck]

According to Neal O'Connor their were at least 12 awards of the Crown Order 4th class without swords on the war ribbon. He specifically found the 12 leutnante mentioned in the militar-Wochenblatt.

Cited from Aviation Awards of Imperial Germany, Volume II, pg 43.

[laurentius]

On 05/01/2021 at 19:02, Komtur said:

The story of Dieckmann is told here

The access is sadly prohibited, shame since I would love to read it

[Deruelle]

12 minutes ago, laurentius said:

The access is sadly prohibited, shame since I would love to read it

Hi,

I think  you have to be registered. I can read the link.

Christophe