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    Posted

    Hi, 

    Could you please tell me if there is a possibility of a combination of the Order of the Crown with No Swords 4th Class with a War Ribbon, ie the ribbon with large black in the center.

     

    Thank you

     

     

    Posted

    Please excuse me if this is sill but would not the cross be on  a white and black war ribbon for noncombatants? Which was very infrequently awarded. Their is a very good article (in German) on the topic. Their are very few awards of the Crown Order 4th Class on the white and black ribbon with only 19 in the colonial period and 1 in WW1.

     

    Übersicht der Magazine 1999-2012 – Deutsche Gesellschaft für Ordenskunde e.V. (deutsche-gesellschaft-fuer-ordenskunde.de)

     

     

     

    v/r

    Chuck

    Screenshot 2021-01-03 131241.png

    Posted (edited)
    1 hour ago, chuck said:

    Please excuse me if this is sill but would not the cross be on  a white and black war ribbon for noncombatants? Which was very infrequently awarded. Their is a very good article (in German) on the topic. Their are very few awards of the Crown Order 4th Class on the white and black ribbon with only 19 in the colonial period and 1 in WW1. ...

    These questions are not silly, because the rules for the different ribbons on Prussian decorations are quite sophisticated.

    No problem is the normal or official ribbon, e.g. the light blue one for the Order of the Crown.

    Then you have the so called war ribbon, black with white stripes on both sides. These were normally handed out with orders with swords. Compared with the normal ribbon, war ribbons are scarce.

    Very scarce are, as you´ve mentioned, the white ribbon with black stripes on both sides. These were given out to decorations with and without swords. These combinations got e. g. military officials and military medicals for there merits in war time. More about these, you find in the article, you´ve linked above.

    Incredible scarce, but not impossible, are awards of Prussian decorations without swords but on the so called war ribbon. I have currently no numbers, but I am quite sure, Daniel can assist in this question.

    Finally it make no sense, to invest in a single prussian order without swords but with a black war ribbon more money, you would pay for both of them separately. Only the combination is scarce, not the single items and you will never know, when they were joined together.

    The only possible connection between them, wich would satisfy me, should be on an medalbar. But I collect these for almost 20 years and can´t remember, to have seen an original appearing medalbar with this combination of ribbon and decoration.

     

    Regards, Komtur.

    Edited by Komtur
    Posted

    Dear Komtur, 

    This is why i really enjoy this forum. Their are truly professional collects who take the time to answer questions the many questions on these topics. P.S. I had a hunch this was not a very likely combination.

     

    Thank You, 

    Chuck

    Posted (edited)

    Thank you for the kind words!

    But to be true, it wasn´t the whole story ?

    The rules opened a possibility to award only the single ribbon to a decoration, one still had, if the kind of ribbon was higher ranking in the question of bravery.

    This was a rarely used possibility and it seems to me very unlikely, to retrace such a procedure afterwards.

    But it was:

    Paul Dieckmann got his Crown Order 4th class with swords on the 2nd November 1905 because of his position as a military veterinary surgeon initial on the white ribbon (with black stripes). But his later merits has been so brave, that he got a separate black war ribbon to his order on 7th December 1907.

    This medal bar and the fitting miniature chain came without a name. But the combination of orders and medals, especially because of the very scarce Mecklenburg Military Merit Cross on the noncombattant red ribbon for service in the colonies, is suitable only to him:

    OL 1905, 1. Nachtrag 1.2.1905 bis 31.1.1906.jpg

    OL 1905, 3. Nachtrag 1.2.1907 bis 31.1.1908.jpg

    Dieckmann, Oberstabs-Veterinär Dr. Paul 1.JPG

    Dieckmann, Oberstabs-Veterinär Dr. Paul 2.JPG

    Dieckmann, Oberstabs-Veterinär Dr. Paul Mini 1.JPG

    Dieckmann, Oberstabs-Veterinär Dr. Paul Mini 2.JPG

    Edited by Komtur
    Posted (edited)
    On 04/01/2021 at 00:35, Komtur said:

    Thank you for the kind words!

    But to be true, it wasn´t the whole story ?

    The rules opened a possibility to award only the single ribbon to a decoration, one still had, if the kind of ribbon was higher ranking in the question of bravery.

    This was a rarely used possibility and it seems to me very unlikely, to retrace such a procedure afterwards.

    But it was:

    Paul Dieckmann got his Crown Order 4th class with swords on the 2nd November 1905 because of his position as a military veterinary surgeon initial on the white ribbon (with black stripes). But his later merits has been so brave, that he got a separate black war ribbon to his order on 7th December 1907.

    This medal bar and the fitting miniature chain came without a name. But the combination of orders and medals, especially because of the very scarce Mecklenburg Military Merit Cross on the noncombattant red ribbon for service in the colonies, is suitable only to him:

    OL 1905, 1. Nachtrag 1.2.1905 bis 31.1.1906.jpg

    OL 1905, 3. Nachtrag 1.2.1907 bis 31.1.1908.jpg

    Dieckmann, Oberstabs-Veterinär Dr. Paul 1.JPG

    Dieckmann, Oberstabs-Veterinär Dr. Paul 2.JPG

    Dieckmann, Oberstabs-Veterinär Dr. Paul Mini 1.JPG

    Dieckmann, Oberstabs-Veterinär Dr. Paul Mini 2.JPG

    Hey Komtur,

    could you please tell us more on this very special medal bar? How comes that Doctor Paul Diekmann got the non- and also the combantant version of the Mecklenburg War merit cross? This must be an amazing story or was he awarded the noncombatant cross together with the prussian one and later got the model for active fighter due to his decoration with the fighters ribbon? I love stories and secrets like that! I really envy you for this bar! Congrats on this one. 

    Edited by BlackcowboyBS
    Posted

    According to Neal O'Connor their were at least 12 awards of the Crown Order 4th class without swords on the war ribbon. He specifically found the 12 leutnante mentioned in the militar-Wochenblatt.

    Cited from Aviation Awards of Imperial Germany, Volume II, pg 43.

    Posted
    12 minutes ago, laurentius said:

    The access is sadly prohibited, shame since I would love to read it

    Hi,

    I think  you have to be registered. I can read the link.

    Christophe

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