Großkreuz EK 1914 original or copy?

[03fahnen]

Hello, gentlemen,
They offer me this Großkreuz ek 1914, as a period original.

The crown and other details seem very poor to me.

Any comments will be welcome

 

 

Edited November 11, 2021 by 03fahnen

[03fahnen]

There was an error in the dates but I have already been able to edit the title and error.

Edited November 11, 2021 by 03fahnen

[BlackcowboyBS]

How many grand crosses shall be out there? Your photos aren't focussed very well, but as you allready said, the quality looks poor on what one can see. So I am more than sceptical on this sample.

[Peter Cornwell]

Agreed. The quality is simply not there for an original period piece. Conversely, the precise uniformity of the beading at both inner and outer angles also makes me somewhat sceptical. As usual, it all comes down to how badly you want it (even as a space filler) and its asking price. Ah! the joys and pitfalls of EK collecting. 

[Alex K]

Purely for reference i found this image a long time ago, and is stated as belonging to August von Mackensen so i assume original awarded piece

[dond]

Besides the issued pieces (7 or 8 if memory serves me correctly) their were pieces for patriotic displays across Germany.  

[VtwinVince]

Don is right, there are many legit period copies floating around. Poor details aside, I like the overall look of this one, in particular the suspension ring and frame details.

[03fahnen]

Thank you very much to all for your comments.

In the end I have decided not to buy this piece.

My friend did not even say the price, because when I told him that I did not like it very much. He told me that he had paid a lot for it and that he would pay it back.

[Elmar Lang]

On 12/11/2021 at 12:09, Alex K said:

Purely for reference i found this image a long time ago, and is stated as belonging to August von Mackensen so i assume original awarded piece

 

Interesting information indeed.

 

As a matter of interest, I purchased what looks like an identical 1914 Großkreuz at a German auction some years ago. It was offered as a relatively old copy that, from an attractive starting price of 100,- Euro, rose in the room up to a much higher, but still very reasonable hammer price.

 

I haven't been able to take a picture with the same light of the supposed v. Mackensen's piece, but I can say that both are identical, besides the different signs of age.

 

The centre is made of stove-enameled cast iron, the frame is made of silver (no marks), the loop is separately-made and soldered to the frame, the ribbon ring is also made of silver, then sewn to a piece of very old Grand Cross ribbon, folded for "display" reasons.

Edited November 18, 2021 by Elmar Lang

[Alex K]

Hi very nice and desirable (to me at least) piece

[Elmar Lang]

Dear Alex, thank you for your kind reply.

 

I would like to add a picture of the reverse side: the "Eichenlaub" has 4 acorns as it should be on a Großkreuz.

 

Do you have an idea about when such pieces could have been made?

 

 

[Elmar Lang]

Searching through the entry-book of my collection, I see that I've bought this cross back in 2009...

Now, I'd like to add some further pictures, obverse and reverse, taken from 3/4, to better appreciate how the details of the cast iron centre are rising and well-detailed:

 

 

Edited November 18, 2021 by Elmar Lang

[BlackcowboyBS]

Well, I know that in 2nd world war that some dealers and producers of orders and medals did present the grand cross of the iron cross in their windows to show this award to the publicity. The German goverment wasn't amused about it, because the grand ross wasn't even awarded at that time, so they have to remove it. 

 

I guess that in 1st ww it might have been similar so many copies were produced for presentation reasons in the early days of ww1.

[Alex K]

On 18/11/2021 at 16:00, Elmar Lang said:

Searching through the entry-book of my collection, I see that I've bought this cross back in 2009...

Now, I'd like to add some further pictures, obverse and reverse, taken from 3/4, to better appreciate how the details of the cast iron centre are rising and well-detailed:

 

 

Like i said earlier, for me a very nice example, whether authentic orrb display only, i would have it in my collection, details look super

[VtwinVince]

I agree with Alex, a super looking example which is the closest you'll probably get to a genuine one.

[kasle]

The thread starter is a genuine wearer´s copy from interwar era made by Godet Berlin, just for the record.
 

[Alex K]

Thanks for that, interesting to know

[03fahnen]

Thank you all very much for your comments and information.
With this new information I can see if the price you give me is reasonable.

[kasle]

Regarding Elmar´s Grand cross, it is probably a period display piece or wearer´s copy as well:
In Wernitz, there is a reprint of the GK 1914 from Aurich collection together with etui and overcarton.
The most of differences between that piece and Elmar´s one are at the reverse.

Reverse of Aurich´s piece resembles 1813 GK with Roman style of numeral 1 (horizontal serif on top and bottom), while Elmar´s piece have common serif 1 with tilted cap. The numeral 3 is completely different, as well as the reverse crown.

On the other hand, the frame looks to be a match to Aurich´s piece.

 

[OTTER76]

If I were to choose a filler, that would have 4 Acorns not just 2

[Graf]

The chance to buy an original 1914 Original Grand Cross or any Grand Cross of the iron Cross is extremly slim.

There are only handful awarded and made.

Al those so called "old copies'   "wearer copy" Museum copy' terms are to increase the value of the item

I had my share in this and I sold them I liked them for a while, however i had to make my mind whether i have to have such items in my collection, I admit that they were good for display.

The point is whether a collector is happy to keep in their collection or not...and whether they y like them or not

The collector's value is less relevant

Also how much they want to spend on those items. It is personal choice

The sellers can label them anything to sell and make profit/living

 

Cheers

 

[kasle]

On 11/12/2021 at 21:46, Graf said:

The chance to buy an original 1914 Original Grand Cross or any Grand Cross of the iron Cross is extremly slim.

There are only handful awarded and made.

Al those so called "old copies'   "wearer copy" Museum copy' terms are to increase the value of the item

I had my share in this and I sold them I liked them for a while, however i had to make my mind whether i have to have such items in my collection, I admit that they were good for display.

The point is whether a collector is happy to keep in their collection or not...and whether they y like them or not

The collector's value is less relevant

Also how much they want to spend on those items. It is personal choice

The sellers can label them anything to sell and make profit/living

 

Cheers

 

Well, there indeed are many modern copies of Grand Cross, where the terms "period wearer´s copy" or "period display copy" is used to increase the value and to fool the buyers. But there are also many pieces, where this term sits as butt on toilet, as we say here, because their period provenance is backed by photos, or other evidence. For example Juncker Grand Cross (1870er as well as 1914er), which was never an awarded piece, is shown in their period catalog. Zimmermann Grand Cross 1914 was found in Zimmermann hoard.
If we take into account also the fact how many "period wearer´s copies" of EK1 1914 are out there - and we like them, because there belong all those clamshells, cruciforms, oval screwbacks, mouse traps and ladders - your meaning as general thought is completely wrong.

[v.Perlet]

The Grosskreuz was awarded 20 times - including 1 retraction, as such 19 awards

5 of them are during the Napoleonic wars

 

Leaves 9 for the Franco-Prussian war, and 5 for WW1.

 

It's simply not feasible that an original would turn up - unless placed on offer by one of the premium auctioneers with a clear indication/proof of the original wearer/recipient - all more or less high ranking officers or higher nobility.

 

The price would be IMHO not less then 20,000 euro taking the price of a Pour-le-Merit into account which in regards to number of awards, would gain the character of a supermarket item, compared to a Grosskreuz.

 

So, an original? well yes there are people that did win a 100 million in a lottery.

 

Regards

v.Perlet

 

Auction 2019 - my price estimate seems to be quite okay

Regards

v.Perlet

Edited January 12, 2022 by v.Perlet

[Graf]

Hi Kasle,

 

If we take into account also the fact how many "period wearer´s copies" of EK1 1914 are out there - and we like them, because there belong all those clamshells, cruciforms, oval screwbacks, mouse traps and ladders - your meaning as general thought is completely wrong.

With all you respect the discussion is about the Grand Cross ..and mine comments related only to it.

If you have to use my comments as general thought we have to include other Decorations as PLM and many others Orders sold on the market as such

 

Cheers

 

 

[BlackcowboyBS]

On 18/11/2021 at 17:00, Elmar Lang said:

Searching through the entry-book of my collection, I see that I've bought this cross back in 2009...

Now, I'd like to add some further pictures, obverse and reverse, taken from 3/4, to better appreciate how the details of the cast iron centre are rising and well-detailed:

 

 

Hi Elmar,

I really appreciate your photos here. I like the artistic expression and the aesthetics of the arrangement of these photos, they are great shots. 
I will also try to present such photo arrangements in my next book, for me something like this makes the difference.